I went out and looked at some stairs today in need of repair. Some steps are rusting through etc but the thing that concerned me and the property owner did not even know about was the support legs for the landings. The configuration is this, walk up 8 steps to a landing, to the right is a stairway to one apartment and to the left is another set of stairs. On the left set the support posts are 10ft tall, looks like about 3.5" tube and from what I found it's only about a 1/8" wall. The landings for both are around 4ft wide and 57" long.
As I was checking out the steps one of the tennants pointed out the supports. On the left side there is a crack along the weld seem about 2ft up the length. The right support looks like it has had water get into it and froze because it has a 2" crack about 2ft up the post and it is cracked wide open. Under the right landing just one of the supports is also cracked as if it has burst from water freezing.
I told the property owner that it would be best to replace the posts, go with a 3" sch40 which would have a much heavier wall. He as I said did'nt even know about the damage but is trying to get this stuff done as low buck as possible and was more concerned with the steps. I think he even mentioned just pulling out the support posts and having them done in brick.....I guess he figured it would be cheaper. I have a pretty good idea he is unaware of the costs associated with this type of work. He has properties and his own plumber, electrician etc and looking for a welder because his other stairs, metal work needs help as well.
Now the question, he asked me if I could just put some sort of metal wrap around the damaged posts. I told him first problem would be locating a piece of pipe that would fit properly around it, then cutting the pipe dead in half and putting it up there and welding it all back together. I told him I did think that would really "fly" as a repair cause it would look really suspicious with that slop up there. I could really use the work, down for a couple weeks until my fitter and I get back out on this job that's about to kick off but also don't want to do some hack bs to save the guy some money as he tells me about his one house and the new one he bought on the lake.
Would wrapping that pipe be a legit repair? I'm thinking no. I know the landings are not that heavy but considering the weight of the stringers, steps and how all that stuff is tied in together it surely don't feel right when I think about it. Told him I really don't feel like testing my insurance and although I want to give him a fair price I also have to think about the safety of the folks that use those stairs everyday.
Don't know how I seem to find all these folks that want ya to use bubble gum and twine to patch this junk back together. Any information would be greaty appreciated.
Thanks,
Shawn
I wouldn't ... it will be cheaper on him and easier on you to just replace the supports with some sch.40 . Not to mention the liability of trying to repair something that was inadequate to begin with . The guy sounds like a cheap skate and no thought for the safety of his tenants . Obviously , if he just bought a house on the lake, he can afford it ... so listen to your gut and do it right so YOU can sleep at night . Thats just my 2 cents ...
If Ive repaired 100 sets of steps, this has been the story on 99 of them. Of course I want to do a great job and powdercoat everything and pour new footers and re-attach the lags but the owner or management company only wants the first two steps fixed and the first post scabbed back together. The way things are right now I wouldnt chase off any work. When doing structural work Sch 40 pipe may not be the best choice according to your local codes. Round tube can be cheaper and is made for this application. I'm not saying sch40 pipe would fail- but pipe is for holding stuff in and structural tube is for holding stuff up. These jobs suck, but can lead to better ones if you do a good job and the customer is happy. Have the owner sign something that says they way you did it is the way he told you he wanted it. I know we all want to do everthing like it was gas line or nuke pipe but most of the world doesnt care.
Eric , I understand what your saying and I agree with you . But , the fact still remains in the SAFETY of the tenants , right ? I wouldn't want to have my name attached to anything that the owner could care less for the safety of others . If the guy is a cheap skate , and the tenants move due to the unsafe conditions and he loses income ... Karma baby! I think the poster of this topic stated he was just waiting to jump on a project ... so if he decides to pass on this , then he would probably be better off... if the owner is a short cutter and cheap skate . Am I wrong or would you send him in knowing what lies ahead for him ? Law suit ... judgement ... I know this is on the worst case , but it has happened that way too many times . Just to save a buck !
I will agree with you on the pipe versus to structurial tube ... But if he is trying to save $$$ then , pipe would be cheaper than tube . It would be only small differences in price but cheaper non the less .
You may find that if you touch any of it you will have to bring the whole thing up to code. I would check local codes before I quoted anything.
And as you check your local codes, contact the local building dept. The officials there can do an inspection and require the work to be done including engineering by approved and certified engineer. Just let them know you are concerned about a job you have been asked to do.
I am not one to get public officials involved unless really necessary. I think that in this case you are definitely dealing with a public safety issure that demands the proper attention. If the owner will not take the responsibility to do what is needed without the prodding of public officials then that is what they are there for. Get them involved.
Possibly as simple as going to get a permit for repair of a structure. They will want to know what and where. Then one thing will lead to another and they will force the appropriate action to be taken.
If not, I would be real careful about getting involved. It can all too easily come back to bite you. Codes are there for a reason. If you don't do your part, you will be the one with the short stick when blame is being delegated.
This will not be about how good you are. It will be about who took the public's best interest in hand and did what was expedient for the residents.
No matter what, you can come away with a clear conscience. Can you if you don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the repairs you made will hold up as expected for the safety of the public? That's what city building officials and engineers are there for.
Have a Great Day, Brent
My main point is to find some way to make some money while not doing anything unsafe. My shop fixes thousands of poured in place steps a year. Everytime I go to one of these older apt. buildings, condos or multi-family houses I find 200 things that need to be fixed, but the owners or the insurance company only want the first two treads replaced and reattach that guardrail over there. I know alot of you guys on here get to do everthing by the book and are supported by the people you work for because they want the best pressure vessle or bridge component. When my guys go do some s.s. pipe or a large cofferdam we can run the show and get to name a pretty good price, but we also have to do the single garge columns, that stuff is easy and there are a hundred guys out there that will do it for nothing. I would find a way to do it and do it safe. I would not become a problem for this guy by trying to throw him under the bus with the city/codes people. I just did 480' of pipe rail for a contractor who told me I was way to high on some plain rails a month ago. When your small you may end up doing more work for free to do it right but thats better than having you truck parked and worring about your bills. This owner isnt just one slumlord out to kill his tenents-this is how most landlords are about these things.
If you're not comfortable with doing a sub-par job give him your recommendations and let him know what you think about doing it his way.
Leave him your number and look for your next job. Remember you're the welder.
Were the stairs built to code? Were they engineered? If so, mabey you could repair the cracks?
just my 2 cents
The stairs look like they are up to code, steps, railings etc. The one post is just a straight crack in the weld seam, the other two look like the "Alien" clawed its way out. The stairs are just old and have not been maintained, like most.
Why not brace up the landing, cut the old post out, put in new post. It will look good and be good. Replace with 3.5 or 4 inch sq. tube. Going up in size to 3/16 wall should make everone feel better. Main thing is to seal the thing up so water can't get in and freeze up. Do it right, do it right the first time, or don't do it.
I wouldnt seal it up. I would drill a small weep hole in the lowest point you can find. I have repaired tons of man-baskets that were welded tight and the moisture trapped inside cause the 1/4 wall sq. tube to turn into round pipe. Even after seeing this happen, I mounted the headache rack on my first personal rig welded up tight to the flatbed. About a year later the bottom of the 1.5x1.5 .120 wall tube had started to swell into a round shape.
That's what I told him yesterday. As far as time/labor to cut tube in half, put up there weld in place etc I'd have as much time as cutting out the damaged tubes and putting in new ones that have a heavier wall. I think that turned the light on for him. At least I got the job though which is good. I've heard about the weep hole several times in the past day or so, good idea that I have not thought of but will surely use.
Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Question about support posts for stair landing
