U.S. Army Standard

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-07-2009 14:25

Welcome to the forum Keith!

and thank you for your service!

I would suggest you do a bit more research on the relationships between the U.S. Military and the AWS

AWS and the Military work together on dozens of welding code committees.

Also the prime contractors who build military equipment have relationships with both the AWS and the branches served.

Now your quest to improve the quality you are seeing at your station is admirable.. All I'm suggesting is that there may be some standards in place and some relationships between governing bodies that you may already be able to take advantage of to get some positive results.

By Keith Davis Date 06-07-2009 17:48

Thank you for your reply. I am currently doing more research on the subject. It's a bit hard right now because I am in Afghanistan. I don't want this deployment to slow down my progress any.

You mentioned relationships between the U.S. Military and the AWS. So I would have to ask you "such as?" My resources for research are limited here so if you could provide me a bit more guidance it would really help. The Army tends to make things a bit more complicated than they need to be in some areas. I've tried checking on GoArmyEd and EArmyU and haven't found anything. My primary goal is my CWI/CWE to start. Anyways...thank you for your assistance.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-07-2009 21:45

Kurt.. I'm an aerospace guy as far as Mil-Spec experience

Two fusion welding mil-specs are Mil-std 1595a which has been superseeded by AWS D17.1 Fusion welding for aerospace stuff. Another Mil-spec that is still in force for aerospace is Mil-Std 2219... D17 may someday superseed 2219 but it hasn't happened yet.

There are some other posters on the forum that have been involved in contract work on armor plate for military vehicles, which may be more up your alley than the aerospace stuff.. I hope they pick up on this thread and chime in on some of the things you might find to be helpful.

Here is a link to a forum thread that focused on armor plate and has a few clues as to where you might look for some beginning help.
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=4247

Here is the army training manual for welding (TC 9-237) It is nothing cutting edge.. But it is chock full of good information, much of it may be good for what your doing now.. Much of it will be good to help your CWI studies.

Hope this helps and keeps you busy for a while..

Stay with us when you can.. There are lot's of posters on this site who would appreciate the opportunity to serve you!
http://www.fortunecity.com/village/lind/247/weld_book/toc.htm

By Keith Davis Date 06-08-2009 07:58 Edited 06-08-2009 08:25

Thank you for the resonses. I am very familiar with the welding TM. It is full of stuff that I learned as a Pipefitter Helper. I have to be familiar with it as an NCO in order to teach my soldiers the army standard (at a minimum).

I have been doing some research on what ASME code covers welding on Military Vehicle Up-Armor so your info on that will be very helpful. Thank you!

For the most part everything in the army is what many call junk iron. Most structral welders out of high school could do this job and due to this there is no sense of quality (QA/QC). My overall long term goal is to fix that. There is no such thing, that I am aware of, of an AWS Certified CWI in the army and I think there needs to be. In fact, I think that all 914A(Allied Trades Technition) Warrant Officers should be.

But, back to my main issue...I could buy the book easily. I don't think it would be wise for me to take the test without any classroom time. I need to go through the class then take the test. I can't find the class anywhere near Fort Hood or a place to take the test. Is it possible to do it via an online coorespondence? Most army education opertunities are done this way. Has AWS made such arrangements with the U.S. Military? I can't go to Houston to take a class because the Army owns me 24/7 as you well know. Is there an accredited colledge that has AWS courses that a soldier could take online?

I am beginning to believe that what I need is not possible. If this is true, then my next question would be ....Who would I contact to make AWS educational testing/recources more available to the U.S. Army (such as CWI/CWE)?

By flamin

Date 06-08-2009 12:25

Lawrence-

are you sure that Mil-Std 2219 has not been replaced by D17.1? I get the impression, after reading the forward of D17.1:2001, that Mil-Std 1595A and Mil-Std 2219 were both replaced by D17.1 in 1993.

I could be wrong though.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 06-08-2009 15:43 Edited 06-08-2009 15:48

Flamin

I'm sure

AWS D17.1 was first published in 2000

MIL STD 2219 a was revised in 2005

By flamin

Date 06-08-2009 16:38

Thanks.... I'm starting to get involved in the same stuff here. So that's good to know.

By 803056

Date 06-12-2009 16:53 Edited 06-12-2009 17:06

The armed services realized there was some very important information left out of AWS D17.1. For one reason or another they decided to resurrect MIL-STD-2219 rather than deal with the AWS committee to address the shortcomings.

An example of one problem that exist with D17.1; try to determine the proper bend radius for materials 1/16 inch thick or less. You will find yourself going back to 1595 to find an solution that is compatible with the past aerospace standards.

There is also something to be desired when trying to figure out who has the authority to make changes, i.e., who is the "engineering authority", the military representative (owner) or the original designer (still in business?)?

My own personal thoughts on the subject; it would have been nice if the writers could have incorporated the changes necessary to harmonize D17.1 with AWS B2.1 with regards to the base metal groupings, testing, etc.

Best regards - Al

By Jriley1972 (*)

Date 06-17-2009 19:54

I am retired Army as of Aug. 08 and I know your exact frustration. I put in 5 tours over in Iraq and one in your lovely neck of the woods. I encountered many of the problems you are now having. First and foremost you are your men’s teacher and their leader. The TM that our DOD provides us...well quite frankly it’s a bit of a joke. You are right in saying that “High school kids could weld this at this level” Well remember this Sgt. the majority of the men and women we get are exactly just that. It is your job to teach them that the minimum is not good enough. Hearing you state you would like to change the way the Army is doing it is courageous and brave.... if you get it done I'll personally put you in for the silver star with valor... you'll deserve it. There are a few books you can download off of the AWS web sight here and they are free or don't cost much. Get with your schools NCO and see if any of the colleges have there online courses for a weld engineer or metallurgist... Yea it is not CWI but it will get you a good foundation towards your goals. That is what I did while on deployment and now trying to finish things up. You will have to take the initiative here. I'm getting to take my CWI test here in Houston in Aug. The other suggestion I have is save up on some leave schedule the CWI test and take 7 days. Fill free to email me any time and I'll see what I can do to help. Good luck-John

By Ke1thk

Date 06-19-2009 13:55

Keith,

Try Mil-Std-1261. Remember, even if the mil standards are canceled you can learn from them. They have good information. To me, AWS is above the mil standards because of the details, such as tensile testing. AWS wants proof. The military wants proof, but not quite as high a standard.

Example: The year is 2007, a time of war/conflict. The Government wants their parts NOW. The only information I have is a faded copy of a print from 1945. I can make out some of the dimensions and material but not much else. I ask my in-house TACOM QAR if I should use industry best standards and make the part? He says, “Weld it.”

Both parties are closely related. I would say that the government has a more common sense approach whereas AWS has a more scientific approach.

Good Luck,

Keith

By miggun

Date 06-19-2009 16:18 Edited 06-19-2009 16:23

Check these out to see if they may help.

http://contracting.tacom.army.mil/engr/12479550_%20TACOM_WELD_CODE_STEEL.pdf

http://contracting.tacom.army.mil/engr/12472301TACOM_ALUMINUM_CODE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20.pdf

By josephd (*)

Date 08-13-2009 14:41

ok thought I would step in to clarify. I am the lead for welding engineering and quality for the U.S.ARMY. I write contract clauses, welding codes, see all the field problems overseas for war efforts. My office wrote the welding codes listed GCVWC steel and aluminum that you see in this message chain. I AM currently starting a AWS committee to update the armor codes to an AWS code. We are waiting on the AWS folks to give us the green lite to start the new welding code. The only welding code that covers ARMOR AS OF TODAY is 12479550 TACOM_WELD_CODE_STEEL, 12472301TACOM_ALUMINUM_CODE, or AWS D1.9 for TITANIUM. I would not recommend using any cancelled MIL STD. The U.S.ARMY has several great welders that could be ARMOR CERTIFIED but for some reason they do not pursue this IAW commercial practice or conforming to GCVWC.

For your TM soldier level guidance on Armor steel, the best guidance I have seen is the LAV TM 08594A-45/2, the rest of the Army guidance is not close enough to get you all the way from concept, production, repair as your standard D1.1 CODE. As for training I train engineers , quality specialist, loggies, program managers and even welders for requirements on welding armor. the training is only one day and would not recommend for one who has no experience. A prerequisite is , welding engineering degree, CWI, master welders and someone of equivalent knowledge. You could contact me for an official site visit if you go through your chain of command. If you justify the need, no funding required.

On another note be careful using this site for official guidance on welding issues for armor, Many just like to just give you any answer without consideration of accuracy.

Remember

The Best Weld On Armor is:

"No Weld At All"

Dominic

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-13-2009 16:12

Ehem!!! Hi Dominic!

I would direct you towards the disclaimer for this forum:

"Postings on the AWS BBS are the opinions and comments of specific individuals, and may not reflect the position of AWS. Procedures and processes posted, as well as any advice given, are not sanctioned by AWS, and AWS makes no representation or warranty as to their validity, nor is AWS liable for any injury or harm arising from such entries or from reliance on any entries. Participants should independently verify the validity of information prior to placing any reliance thereon."

Btw, where have you been all this time? ;)

Respectfully,
Henry