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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Cap and Trade
- - By ESC300 (**) Date 06-26-2009 01:57
Obama Is Pushing For This Crap,Wants to Make the Polluters Pay.Will Create Thousands Of Jobs,Wonder Why Industries Are leaving The U.S.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 06-26-2009 02:09
I don't know if you realize it but industry has been leaving the US long before Jan. 20, 2009.  Its all about $$$$$$.  Nearly slave labor in China means more money in the pockets of the owners.  Its not new.
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 06-26-2009 02:22
Something to do with the wonderous NAFTA?
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 06-26-2009 12:56
Maybe something to do with Wally World, and people buying there?
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 06-26-2009 18:04
Doesnt seem like there is anyplace left to shop that isnt Green nutz. I will buy from Wally World as long as they support hunting and fishing. Some things are worth fighting for.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 06-26-2009 18:13
I hear that some Walmarts are getting rid of the hunting/fishing departments due to lack of sales.
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 06-26-2009 18:33
I doubt that they have gotten rich selling guns and ammo to those getting ready for the change. 
Parent - By ESC300 (**) Date 06-26-2009 03:09
Bryon-you missed the point i was trying to make.Forget it
Parent - By KSellon (****) Date 06-26-2009 13:44
and to think some people voted for 'Change'
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 06-26-2009 14:30
like the mass exodus of the clinton years.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 06-26-2009 16:25
People can blame Clinton, Obama, Bush, Nixon and any other president.  It's all irrelevant.  Dems and Repubs don't matter.  What matters is money.  Until corporations can be controlled they will continue to flee the US for higher profit margins in China and elsewhere.
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 06-26-2009 16:38
RIGHT!
MDK
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-26-2009 18:03
I think it is human greed that drive many corporations and politicians etc. Greed for money, power etc.

We love our stuff (I like some stuff too) and we don't want to give it up.

However I don't want to give up the freedom to GET stuff by any honest means necessary that doesn't break any law.

Corporations are not to be controlled by the Government . But thats what we want to do. Soon there will just be the US Corporation if were not careful.  I don't think it will be able to manage things any better.
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 06-26-2009 18:36
Billy Bob & Hill Rod made more trips to China and other communist countries than any others in history paving the way for the change but not covering their tracks very well. 
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 06-27-2009 03:09
Bryon, What are Yout thoughts on the Federal Reserve, the IMF & the Bilderberg group?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 06-27-2009 04:29
Bryon,

You can blame corporations, you can blame presidents, or any body or thing you choose. Your arguement that it's the corporations, holds as much water as someone elses arguement that it's politicians.

Soviet Union, United States, Venezuela, Mexico, England, does'nt make a damn bit of difference what form of government, without honor, ethics, morals, and just plain good upbringing, greed is going to be present. No one wants to say that. No one wants to put the blame where it belongs. It's the same arguement used for gun control. It's the gun's fault, never mind the person who pulled the trigger. The same arguement that people sue over, it was McDonalds fault someone spilt hot coffee in their lap, anything and everything but putting the fault squarely where it lies. Society and personal responsibility.

I call BULLS***. It's like shooting the cow because it delivered sour milk. Never mind that for years the farmer neglected the cow, and feed it crappy molded hay.

The corporations are nothing more and nothing less but a product of society gone wrong. We teach children that big brother is there to protect you, that questioning the government is wrong, that everything is right unless it's politically incorrect.

We are painted as demons if we dare stand up for moral and ethical values contrary to the current flavor of the day socially. We are painted as demons for trying to teach our children right from wrong and slowly but surely are being told only the government can do that.

We are treated as if we are morons, who do not have the ability to survive without the government, nor the ability to think for ourselves.

The people who run the government, who run the corporations, all are about instant satisfaction. The government reacts to it's owners (the people) by the most expediant answer, not the best answer or the right answer. The corporations react to it's owners, the shareholders, by doing what gives the most profit to them in the shortest term.

It has become a society of instant gratification and God help any who stand in the way of that.

The sad but true news is, hard work, ethical work, honorable work is the only way out. Instant satisifaction is the road to disaster that we are on and without a fundemental change in the moral and ethical fabric of this country, and the world, NOTHING, is going to change.

Throw your darts, spit your venom, it will not change the reality of that. You and every other liberal out there on a constant demon hunt for the culprit should look to the mirror. There are the persons at fault. If you bought at walmart, or any other corporation who excercised fast and loose business practices, or sold out their employees to overseas holders, or anything other than being run in an ethical, moral and concience manner, you are at fault. If you voted only for those who said the right words regardless of the politicians track record, or voted someone in who had been caught cheating already, or any way shape or fashion showed themselves to be dishonorable people, you are at fault.
Not the guns, not the corporations, not the drugs, not the cars, emissions, or whatever flavor of demon it may be that day, YOU, and everyone else who has feed the beast of immoral, unethical, and dishonorable actions.

ONLY, when people start holding themselves individually responsible for their part and start Doing something about it, and ONLY then, will there be any substaintial change for the better.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 06-27-2009 23:17
Ok then the main problem with all of society is morality.  Since we live in such a free secular society, every single person has a different idea of what morality is based upon their unique circumstances or upbringing if you will.  An Amish from PA will have a very different sense of what morality is than the child of a hippie in California.  So while we all fight over what is "right" we are bombarded with notions that individuality is more important than anything else.
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 06-29-2009 00:02
Perhaps that's the biggest part of the problem.  As America at large becomes more secular, and more folks express differing ideas of what is right and just, we edge closer to our doom as a functional society.  History repeating itself again?  Seems so.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 06-29-2009 02:18 Edited 06-29-2009 22:42
Yep. It does seem so. Problem with right and just is, 'some' people want to drag out an arguement as to what is right and just.
As has been evidenced in this forum, any redirection to the actual source of the problem is meet with baiting. Your ask to define right and by doing so, what is wrong.
This is in my opinion done deliberately. They don't have the answers, but they are not shy of trying to shoot holes in yours. The politics of "no" as they would call it if you did the same to them.

We shouldn't have to spell out that killing for profit or anger is wrong, stealing is wrong, gluttony is wrong, unchecked greed is wrong, thoughtlessness is wrong (in regards to how you treat others), dishonoring your elders/parents is wrong, lieing is wrong, among others. "they" would attempt to drag you into a religous debate. It has nothing to do with religion at heart. The Christian bible may contain the 10 commandments. of which 5 of them are primarily related to Christianity, but the other 5 are unrelated and simply good morals.

It is my opinion that if a person has to debate the basics of right, wrong, and just then they themselves do not have a firm basis in it to begin with.

Sadely history is repeating itself, as it has for every empire/government whatever you choose to call it that starts dismissing the virtures of honor, ethics, and hard work.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 06-29-2009 10:54
Bryon,
"we are bombarded with notions that individuality is more important than anything else."

Interesting choice of words.

"The maxim that society exists only for the well being and freedom of the individuals composing it does not seem to be in conformity with nature's plans...If classical liberalism (not be confused with modern liberalism-parentheses mine) spells individualism, fascism spells government."
Mussolini
Parent - By uphill (***) Date 06-26-2009 02:21
Sort of makes you wonder who is buttering his bread dont it?  I didnt know Gore was a waiter.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 06-26-2009 12:18
Yes, but what choice were we offered?  McCain was in favor of cap and trade too.  Don't blame me.  I voted for the Constitution Party.  They had no chance of winning, but they were better than McCain who was a liberal "cross dressed" as a "conservative".
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-26-2009 13:29 Edited 06-26-2009 13:32
OBEWAN,
"McCain who was a liberal "cross dressed" as a "conservative".

As was Bush actually in many respects. Spending, immigration, etc. Thus, my opposition to him. And opposition to a candidate of preference is an idea foreign to the left. The Cult of Personality people.
The cult of personality folks were successful in distracting the electorate from the issues. It was "I hate Bush' opposed to the Shining Savior, while all the while trying to fill our heads with rhetoric that the issues were important to them.

And we are still witnessing the cult of personality. Every time the polls slip a little the left is advocating that Schicklgruber get out there and fill our heads with bulls**t again. And admitedly he is very good at it. But wherein are the real issues? Show of hands, how many have listened to his words and found themselves saying, "Huh?"
So, we have a President that sounds pretty, and says nothing, and a Vice President that can't help sounding stupid but actually reveals his true thoughts.
Or in other words an arrogant President that thinks he's the smartest guy on the planet and the electorate are morons (not entirely without justification) and a Vice President that is actually a moron and therefore can't recognice an electorate that is far smarter than he.
Parent - - By drewp29 (**) Date 06-26-2009 16:38
You know as much as I think Big 'O' is a conniving, scheming, underhanded, low rent thief, I do have to hand it to him on how he has set himself up. It makes me shudder at the thought of impeachment and what we would be left with if Schicklgruber were removed from office . . . you have to ask yourself, "How much worse can it get?" And then you only have to think of the VP and say, "Ohhhhh, that's right . . ." You know we studied about these types of leaders in a graduate course I took in college - the kind that keep anyone intelligent enough to challenge their position of authority from ever gaining enough of a foothold to do just that. Therefore, the leader appears to be the best choice for the position in light of those individuals who could be candidates for their replacement. This is known as 'Poor Business Ethics and Practice' . . . but who said Obama had ethics to begin with? People believe as though he had to deal with the types of issues that the underprivileged (black, white, brown, etc. it makes no matter) face day after day just because of the color of his skin, but he NEVER had to deal with any of that - oh boohoo, I went to private school, boohoo, I went to an ivy league university. We should all be so lucky. You know what people in the ghetto do to people that grew up in his situation?

And one more thing - I have a tendency towards disliking anyone who writes an autobiography. If the world deems you important enough to write a biography, so be it, but the arrogance of someone that believes their life is important enough to write one about themselves and then sell it to the public is just beyond my comprehension. And even worse are the literary review associations that give awards to these kinds of people for the pseudo non-fiction written from a bias viewpoint and then have the gall to call the author 'great'.

That's alright, I truly believe the world will remember the Big Schick as being the worst president of the USA, and that he will have to answer for his misdeeds someday . . .

Drew
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 06-26-2009 17:31
One of the most interesting things about Schicklgrubers books is that despite the fact that he insisted all through the campaign that Rev. Wright had little to no influence over his thought processes and attitudes (with of course the mainstreem media lying prostrate before his declaration) he thought enough of him to entitle one of his books straight from the Rev. Wright speach library. A term coined by Wright himself.
The Audacity of Hope.
As it turns out its meaning seems more to be "Hope as a Weapon".
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 06-26-2009 18:12
I agree 100% there was no choice that was correct. Politics have been mistaken to follow values. All of this has been coming on since Nixon and Carter.  Old "thumblike" surely didnt do politics any favors by lying under oath either. Who ever thought that the spenders could tripple the deposit in 6 months?  Oh wait is that quadrupled now? Its been a couple of minutes. We the people have enormous power to stop this crap in its tracks, just vote out the money printing socialists in 2010.  Its never too late to strike out laws and return to the Constitution. Who knows maybe some jailtime is going to some of the powers that be.
Parent - - By drewp29 (**) Date 06-26-2009 19:30
I agree, do the research and see how the electorates voted, but my gosh, if they can cause this kind of monetary destruction in 6 months, another year is gonna be too long.

Can't we just claim a huge "OOOOOOOOOOOPPPPSSSSSS" and have a reelection of House/Senate and the Presidency? I know elections are expensive, but think of the trillions we'll save by removing these fools from their respective offices.

Drew
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 06-27-2009 02:38
Dont know if you watched any of the debate and readings of the 300 page added articals by the minority leader. It was filed at 3:00 in the morning and is part of the 1300 page bill. Some scary shinola embedded in this fictional crud. Your house will be taxed on its energy efficency along with its value. The house appraisers have to be trained in to correctly read the guidelines. Oh boy I cant wait to see what $$$$$$$$$$$$$ they can dream up . Lets see, the last 8 year election and the resulting 1 billion $$ campain must add up to 20-30 billion so far. But i forget that "O" got the Green light to sign anything for anyone.

It would be a good time to have a removal of anyone who is voting for the mass spending. Maybe its time to revoke all signed laws for say 6 months and remove all free government retirement bennies at the same time. Pee-lousy can ride the bus home.
Parent - By ruero (**) Date 06-29-2009 16:38
The bad thing about all this Crap and Trade it's based on Theory of Global Warming,  thats BS to be passing bills on.
Parent - - By drewp29 (**) Date 06-29-2009 16:51
Also, the proposed subsidies for trade-in vehicles getting 10+ mpg less than the new vehicle are both economic nightmares. The government is telling us to make more informed decisions when it comes to our financing, but yet they are trying to get people to buy new over-priced vehicles based on the 'Greenness' of it all. The old saying of 'you can't have your cake and eat it too' comes to mind.

Let's do the math:

Your current vehicle gets 15 mpg. At an average of 15,000 miles per year you are spending $3000 a year on gas if it is $3.00 a gallon.

New car gets 25 mpg. At an average of 15,000 miles per year you are spending $1800 a year on gas, saving $1200 a year - a significant savings.

Now, if the new car costs $25,000, and you get (just a guess) $10,000 for your trade-in, you have spent $15,000 on the new vehicle, which will take 12.5 years to break even with the savings you realize from the mpg difference.

There are also savings from vehicle maintenance, repairs, etc., so let's bump the yearly savings to $2000, in which case it will now take 7.5 years to break even - if there are no major repairs on the new vehicle.

But, at 15k miles per year, in 7.5 years your vehicle will have 112,500 miles on it . . . and if I were a betting man I would bet there is at least 1 major repair in those 110k+ miles, so you'd need that factored in as well.

And at 7.5 years, you will not have been covered by warranty for at least 2.5 years, or longer if the warranty is 5 years / 60,000 miles. The math says the concept is flawed, and the only real proponent is if you take into account the savings of 11,250 gallons of gasoline over the 7.5 year period, as well as the decrease in pollutants. Okay, great, we're saving fuel and polluting less . . . good for us, but it still is not economically viable for the majority of Americans right now.

This is not taking into account interest rates on auto loans . . . but to do the math with that in mind will just make people sad face :(    
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 06-29-2009 16:56
The supporters of this legislation do not care one whit about cost savings.  Their aim is to reduce emissions, period.  They couldn't care less about the state of our wallets.
Parent - - By RioCampo (***) Date 06-29-2009 23:56
the aren't even in it to reduce emissions. What a joke. It's purely for tax revenue. If it was for reducing emissions, they would have given some of the handouts to companies to retrofit plants, but that would have actually put americans back to work. Unlike the 2 trillion or so that "saved" 150000 jobs at a cost of 13,000,000 or so per job.
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 07-10-2009 21:33 Edited 07-10-2009 21:35
you are correct-- a carbon tax-- something every breathing creature emits.

Check out:
The Oregon Petition
IPCC
http://www.amerikanexpose.com/Graphics/wildlands_map.html
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-10-2009 23:10
It's called getting taxed for the air you breath. I guess they've ran out of normal reasons to tax.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 06-29-2009 17:08 Edited 03-20-2014 08:44
If you use some different numbers, the math might work.  I would recommend trying it on a Hyundi or Honda Civic.  You can get a new Civic for about $15K.  That is only $5K over your trade in allowance of $10K, and it will get up to 34MPG, not 25.

Also, you need to figure cost per mile to operate a car.  With the new car, the counter is set to zero.  With the old car, there will be a lot of maintenance headaches. 
And on the repairs, the Hyundi people used to offer 10 years and 100K miles.   Some still do.  It pays to shop around.
Parent - By drewp29 (**) Date 06-29-2009 17:49 Edited 06-29-2009 17:53
Agreed, the math was really only to give an example of how it could work if the concept was applied to a very basic situation.

Honda Civic with trade-in at $10k allowance - $5k

34mpg versus 15mpg - savings of $1677 a year - 3 years to break even

The Civic in 3 years will not even have broken a sweat, and the value will be much closer to the original $15k than most other vehicles.

This may be a good option, but how many people will be looking at Honda Civics or Toyota Echos? More than 3 years ago, but most people still shop in the low to mid $20k range.

Oh, and Hyundai? They're making much better cars these days, and the warranty is great, but for years they made horrible vehicles and I am leery of their cars even to this day! Just like Suzuki, great motorcycles, but pretty crappy cars in general.

or we could all buy Tata Nanos - lol

Drew
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 06-29-2009 23:23
Bummer of a car those Neons. They were built to throw away as were most low end cars. Thats one of the reasons Chry went bankrupt. They even put the PT cruiser on that drivetrain.  If it were not for the fact Chry cars have the worst resale of all the mfg they wouldnt have any records at all. Lots of Escorts go 250k without anything but a timing belt( if you dont wait for it to blow) and still run OK. Not that a man would want his family in a tin can cut open by some evil prehistoric( Green) couch. 

Anytime the g"O"vernment tells you to do anything...........

Cant see buying a new car when the economy is being undermined by historic over spending. Will I still have my job and how much will the "O" Zar tell my boss he can pay me? Will my house have to be penalized for not having the established "Ghore" value rating or will I become a Host for some of the 100 million "New US " enrollees?? When will this outragious controlling freak curb his vision persuit?

Lots of questions, not many answers. Next new car if I ever feel safe enough to buy one will be a Ford. They are on top of the food chain.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 06-30-2009 12:43
I agree there are some good Fords.  I would consider a Ford 500 or similar.
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Cap and Trade

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