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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Api 1104 "12 on 12"
- - By southernpride (*) Date 06-27-2009 13:27
I am trying to break into the pipeline trade, but doing it the hard way.  Got myself some 12" pipe and been practicing all week.  I 've been following Franklin's black book with the layout.  The pipe I was able to get was 12" schedule 80.  I noticed that Franklin's suggestions of making a radial cut in the header hold true EXCEPT for the top six inches.  I found that I have to leave about 1/2 inch on the inside of the cut line for the top six inches.  If I don't, the inside edges of the branch and header are no where near close and would be impossible to weld once beveled.  Franklin lays out the header using the OD of the branch.  This is my confusion.  If someone has any suggestions or am I doing things wrong?  Thank you.
Parent - - By ruero (**) Date 06-28-2009 23:41
You might want to get "The Pipefitters Blue Book" much easier explanation on how to layout. You do need to learn to layout but once you know then get a template for your test much faster. releeco.com
Parent - By CK Welding (**) Date 07-10-2009 00:07
Not all outfits will let you use a template for your layout.  alot of them want to see you lay it out yourself.  Maybe thats why you said you need to know how. just thaught i would throw you my $.02
Parent - - By dobsalot (**) Date 07-10-2009 02:54 Edited 07-10-2009 02:58
there is a difference in a saddle on and  a saddle in.If your trying to fit the inside diameters together the franklin book deminsions wont work.  your branch should fit onto the header and you only bevel the branch. It's harder for me to explain it than to do it. Keep working at it you get it. I hope this is some help. also,I allways layout the branch then set the branch onto the header and draw my cut mark on the inside of the pipe (branch)
Parent - - By southernpride (*) Date 07-11-2009 17:03
I am trying to fit the saddle onto the header so the inside edges match up.  It seems everyone I talked to about this test says you only need to bevel the header.  When I line up the branch onto the header, theres no way I can fit a rod between the two edges because theres not enough bevel to do so.  Beveling both branch and header allow enough space to get the rod in for a bead pass.  I am working with sched 80 12 inch pipe and I think this is some of the problem-because its too thick.   I need to get this test figured out cuz I am just about out of pipe and everyone in this area asked if I am gas certified.  Plus the bank account is gettin thin.  Thanks for the help everyone.
Parent - - By dobsalot (**) Date 07-12-2009 03:38 Edited 07-12-2009 03:46
to my knowledge, the 12 on 12 is test to see if ,1 you can lay it out,2 cut it to fit, and 3 weld it with full penetration.  Find you some .250 wall 12", lay out the branch then cut it with a square cut. then set the branch onto the header to see where you need to trim  to get that perfect fit. once you get a good fit then you can grind a bevel on the throat sections of the branch. set the branch back onto the header and draw your cut line from the inside of the branch. this will give you the inside deminsion of your branch. cut your header buy pointing torch to the center of pipe, do not bevel.the branch sets on top of the header with the inside of the branch meeting the outside of the header.  only once have i ever seen this type of joint done in the oil and gas industry, and that was back in the 70's. this test is to see if you can fit ,cut and weld pipe. when we take  this test,every frickin year, we are allowed to prepare the pipe and have it tacked together in order to save time since we also do 12" butt weld and 2" sch 160.
Parent - - By ruero (**) Date 07-12-2009 04:46
dobsalot is spot on. Your branch test on a pipeline job is also to qualify you to do fab and tie-ins. What I like about the Blue Book is they show you how to mark the pipe in 16ths and give you your cut back dimension. You can take a adding machine tape and wrap around your pipe, fold it into 16ths then with it all folded up nip each corner, then when you put it back on the pipe you mark you pipe from the notch on the tape. Mark square line off each mark back at least 6" then the book gives you cutback dimension, you can use a thin banding metal to mark your cut it works easier than the wrap-a-round. I hope some of this helps but is hard to explain and understand with out seeing it done. Once again get that Blue Book and you will understand much better. 
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 07-12-2009 14:52
To add to the last two posts, the heavy wall pipe you have is making it harder. I have always tested with 12 inch-0.250 wall.

When preparing the branch, the throat will have to have much more of a bevel than the arms. Otherwise it will be hard to get full penetration in that area. The heavy wall pipe  will really fight you here. The "arms" of the branch need very little bevel. I still put a land on all of the branch bevel. 

When you have an acceptable fit of the branch on the header, trace out the inside of the branch. I then cut about 1/8 inch INSIDE of the line leaving a little of the header inside of the branch. I have never had a problem with an inspector when doing this. This just makes a full penetration of the branch easier. 

If possible ask the inspector what he wants to see, how he thinks it should be done. I have found most of the inspectors want you to pass and will be glad to give advice if approached in a friendly way. At the testing facility more than likely there will be old test pieces lying around. Look at them and see what the better looking ones look like.

Once you have a good fitting branch whittled  out, I would strongly suggest making a pattern from it. The next one will be much easier if you have a pattern suited to the way you will torch out the branch.

In case someone might not realise it, when you lay the branch on top of the header to mark the header and tack it up, everything is upside down. To make the test after it is tacked up, it will be turned over. In other words the branch and header will look like a T with the header on TOP. If the branch is the right length it can just sit on the ground for the test although I usually raise it up for ease of welding.

One other thing, when tacking up the branch- header, it is helpful to have a small thin wedge to to hold the space at the arms, They can close in sometimes. Also consider where the straps will be cut out and don't tack in that area.
Parent - - By southernpride (*) Date 07-12-2009 16:08
Thank you to everyone who replied to this post.  This is some of the most descriptive information I've found about this test yet.  Finding 12'' sched 80 was hard enough but Ill look for .250 thickness as this has been a lot of my problem.  I got in touch with a testing outfit this past week and the guy said I have to get a gas company to send me to the testing facility.  Of course, how am I suppose to convince a gas company to send me when I don't have pipeline experiece.  Would it make sense to pay out of my own pocket the cost of the test but go test under the gas company's name?  I am dead serious about getting this 1104 test under my belt -even if I have to take out a loan to pay for the test.  Also, the tester said there's a second part to this test called a "hot tap."  He said they run water and air through the pipe while you weld it up, 7018 all the way out.  Has anyone taken this test before?  Is it a stab in or butt weld ? I forgot to ask him.  Thanks again for all the advice. --Tye
Parent - - By cmays (***) Date 07-13-2009 03:08
Itll probably be a split -Tee type or sleeve type joint design where you will need to weld both seems and around the outside of the sleeve over the hot line. Penetraton control is what you are tested on here. IP will bust you and Over Pen will....well get you wet and frustrated butmuch better than dead though...... lots of practice and good luck
Parent - - By ruero (**) Date 07-14-2009 02:02
Tye, another thing on your branch if you are not already doing, once you have the branch tacked in place take the cut piece from the hole and tack it to the top of the branch convex looking out. Then you tack your branch to jackstand and you can adjust to a comfortable height and rotate while welding.

good luck
Parent - By southernpride (*) Date 07-14-2009 13:43
That makes a lot more sense than the way I've been holding the pipe.  Also, didn't know you could rotate the pipe, I would've guessed it would've been a fixed test like a ASME pressure vessel 6G test.  Thanks for the tip!! --Tye
Parent - By southernpride (*) Date 07-14-2009 13:49
Oh yeah, I ve heard of the sleeve joint before.  Thank you for the info. --Tye
Parent - - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 07-14-2009 03:32
Southernpride  were are you from?  I've got quite a pile of 12  250 wall I keep around.  It's pretty cheap around here (in oklahoma) 5 6 bucks a foot.  I got some roughnecks that drop 12 pups off at the shop all the time it's relativley easy to get a hold of....On the branch test looks like everyones commented on any advice i'd give  just lots of hood time you'll get it...never took the hot tap version learned to hot tap in the field it was a pass or fail test
Parent - - By southernpride (*) Date 07-14-2009 13:39
Low Hydrogen,   I am located in central Pennslyvania.  Tell you what.  At this point, Id be half tempted to drive to Oklahoma to buy some of that pipe off of you.  A round trip of 2 days and a couple hundred dollars expenses just might be a worth while investment.  Where in Oklahoma are you located?  Thanks. --Tye
Parent - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 07-14-2009 19:18
Alva, ok  I looked around the shop right now i have about 7 pieces average lenght is 6' the railroad yard in stillwater is getting 6 per foot zoscke pipe in thomas oklahoma is getting about that,  I'd let them go for five a foot. but if your going to drive that far i'd call tim zoscke he deals in used pipe might as well by a trailer load take it back home and sell what you don't need......Tim zoschke 580-661-2251,  Railroad yard   Randall herrmann-405-377-8763
Parent - - By NWPAwelder (**) Date 07-18-2009 16:32
Tye, where in Pa? Im in McKean Co. 
Parent - - By southernpride (*) Date 07-19-2009 01:24
NWPAwelder, State College, Centre Co.
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 07-19-2009 22:37
S.P. Try Altoona Pipe and Supply they carry 12" structural grade ,good enough for practicing with. They're right down I-99 from you. P.S. GO STEELERS IN THE HUNT FOR #7. AND PITTSBURGH THE HOME OF LORD STANLEY'S PENS.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-20-2009 12:45
Beautiful country there. I was lucky enough to stay there for about six weeks overseeing some test runs of transit buses at the Altoona test facility.

jrw159
Parent - - By NWPAwelder (**) Date 07-22-2009 01:58
Would that test be for NFG?  If so you can take it at their facility free of charge as long as you are affiliated with a contractor who bids their work.  Ask around at their local service center. They may have some drops that you can have.  All the guys I have met seem to be very friendly and willing to help...at least up this way.
Parent - - By southernpride (*) Date 07-22-2009 23:03
NWPAwelder,  no its not for NFG.  I am just looking for a chance to take a welding test with someone.  I have a local company that may send me off to a testing center(as affiliated with them).  Their only hang up with me is I am an independent contractor and he (the owner) thinks I may take all their work.  I will give the National Fuel and Gas company a call tomorrow and see what they have to say.  Maybe a contact or two -at this point, I am desprite for work and any leads are appreciated.  Thanks again. --Tye   
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-24-2009 18:08
From talking to the lab he said I could go as low as 12" on the branch and 18" on the length, I'm assuming the "header" is the top part of the T, branch is the leg of the T??. He had a guy test the other day and said they had about two inches on either side. On my piece I gave myself a bit more room, cause I had the extra pipe. I went with 24" and a 12" tall branch. I know when they did the 12 on 12 but they coupons were pretty long so they could put them in the tensile machine.

$5-$6 per foot for 12" .250" wall!!! Amazing!! Around here in Tn they're getting $26 per foot for that stuff! At least that's what I paid a few months ago. A friend said he went to a scrap place that was charging that for used 12"!! At those prices have a piece cut off at the 150lb mark and send it UPS!!

Around here when I went to take my test they said I, (A) had to have a gas department official watch me take the test or (B) go to the lab and have a CWI watch me do the test. I see your point about being a contractor and they have to "send you" to take your test??
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 07-22-2009 23:05
[deleted]
Parent - By southernpride (*) Date 07-24-2009 22:39
Oh I know dbigkahunna, I hate that schd 80 sh**.   Sad part is, its all I could find.  Well, I wont be wasting any money on a test any time soon cuz, mmmmm well I dont have any more money!  Change we can believe in!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Api 1104 "12 on 12"

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