union or open shop

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 07-16-2009 16:33

Welcome to the forum Lightening!

Both choices can work.

*Good* union apprenticeships are hard to beat.. Take some time to explore exactly what is involved in that union apprenticeship...

* What kind of training will take place over your years of apprenticeship?

* How steady has the work been at the local... How many apprentices are currently on the bench

* Would this apprenticeship provide a well rounded learning opportunity with a variety of equipment, materials and processes?

A Union Journeyman, fully trained in a multi-year program. Has been consistantly educated, tested and employed. This type of person can land on their feet just about anyplace, even in a tough economy.

However not every union or every local has this kind of opportunity... So research is important.

Working in non union jobshops can also be a good experience... However there will be less structure in most cases and your ongoing professional education will likely be totally up to you to provide on your own time. (not that this is a bad thing)

By 803056

Date 07-16-2009 22:15

The sheetmetal unions that I am familiar with have excellent apprenticeship programs.

Best regards - Al

By lightningrod Date 07-17-2009 03:12

Thanks for the great advice.lightninrod

By lightningrod Date 07-17-2009 03:12

Thank you it is good advice,lightningrod

By lightningrod Date 07-17-2009 03:15

Thank you very much lawrence

By Iron Head 49 (***)

Date 07-16-2009 23:48

You should be all over that, like white on rice!

By lightningrod Date 07-17-2009 03:14

Thanks a bunch for the advise Ironhead.Thanks everybody it really helps,Lightningrod.

By Iron Head 49 (***)

Date 07-17-2009 10:43

lihtningrod some of the best layout men I ever worked with are Union sheetmetal workers! I know a hand full of Union sheetmetal worker weldors who are also some of the best I’ve ever worked with.
You get a sheetmetal apprenticeship under your belt, along with a good work ethic you can go anywhere in the world and make a living!

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-18-2009 02:40 Edited 07-18-2009 02:43

I would be more concerned with a "real apprenticeship" as compaired to "on the job training" than weather an open or union shop, but in reality, it might be hard to find a good apprenticeship in an open shop anymore. I suggest You go for the apprenticeship. When You are a journyman, then it is time to do the "journy" part and see what is done in other shops, at that point You will be more readily hired and at a better pay scale.

By 803056

Date 07-18-2009 17:39 Edited 07-18-2009 17:49

A completed apprenticeship is like a college degree in the fact that you can go anywhere with it, i.e., it is transportable and people recognize the "value" of the paper it is printed on. You may decide to enter a different trade, but the training and experience are still recognized.

Some companies have in-house training programs that are excellent, but all too often they are not recognized by other companies or in other states. Apprenticeship programs, whether offered by a construction union or a shop, have to be approved by the Labor Department (in many states) and have to meet minimum requirements for hours of classroom training and on-the-job experience. A recognized apprenticeship program is by far the better of the two. The unions do not have an exclusive lock on apprenticeship programs. There are "open shop" companies that have approved apprenticeship programs, but I expect the majority of apprenticeship programs are with union shops. It has something to do with corporate culture and the recognized value of having a skilled work force.

I completed an apprenticeship program with the Ironworkers and both my brothers completed apprenticeships as a machinist and tool and die maker one union and the other open shop). I don't believe any of us would have received the training we did were it not for being part in a state recognized apprenticeship. I have nephews that have been "trained" by their open shop employers, but not part of an apprenticeship program. They are taught how to do a particular operation or how to run a particular machine, but they don't get training on a variety of machines and they don't have to attend evening classes. "Which would you rather have in your wallet?", as the advertisement asks?

Any shop instructor that would steer his students away form a recognized apprenticeship program is an idiot. You can tell him I said so!

Best regards - Al

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-19-2009 05:17

Well said, Al. I completed a state approved tool & die apprenticeship in an open shop. I have worked in other trades since, but I don't regret the apprenticeship AT ALL.

By 803056

Date 07-19-2009 18:31

That's my feeling as well. I no longer work on the iron, but there are practical things I learned in the field that aren't taught in school that have helped me numerous times in my consulting practice. What you learn can't be taken away from you. One is respect for a hard day's work and another is respect for the people that get dirty earning an honest living.

Best regards - Al

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-19-2009 18:55

While I am not a union man by any stretch of the imagination (some bad experiences while I was a union boilermaker hand) there is much to be said for the apprenticeship programs of most unions. It is some of the best training you will get anywhere. And as Al in particular has stated many times, that kind of education goes with you anywhere and is respected by everyone.

If you have the opportunity it would be rather foolish to pass it up. But whatever else you do, go into every learning experience as a 'student' with a learning attitude and spirit. You will come away with much more than you may realize at the time.

Good luck, Have a Great Day, Brent