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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Red Or Blue for a decent GMAW unit...
- - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-08-2009 22:52
And please have some reason for why other than "I bleed X color.", even though I do understand that argument.

I'm looking to get a nice GMAW unit sometime soon, and I’ve been looking at the Lincoln 350mp or the miller 350p. I would be using the machine at home but it would also be used when I get around to establishing a shop which is why I want something heavier than a 110 wire spiting buzz box.
The base requirements are that the machine has full voltage and wire control (no taps) and some form of inductance control. If I was to get a machine that would have all the bell and whistle pulse settings as an option then I’d get them too. For the moment it has to be single phase, unless I get my hands on a 3 phase converter some time soon.
If anyone has any experience with either machines, or has another option for me to consider, please chime in. I realize this is going to be an expensive endeavor, which is why I’m starting to plan it out now.
Thank you
-Clif
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-09-2009 05:11
Clif, I would not try running a 350 amp 3 phase machine from a phase converter. Commercially built converters that size are really expensive and an electronics heavy machine like You are talking about probably won't like the phase voltage differences that are likely with varying load. These problems are even greater in most home built converters.

My MIG machine has voltage taps, 24 of them. While not infinant control, the steps are pretty small. No inductance, however. This makes for a durable machine with little to go wrong. Altho out of production, this machine is similar to an Esab 250, and You can get one of those for $1800.
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-09-2009 13:13
Dave,
I was looking at ESAB and I do agree that many taps is a lot more control than the 7 or 8 I’m used to dealing with, but I’m still looking for more control than taps would provide. I'd rather not have to have more contact tips and nozzles than I need just to vary induction through sickout. I know that’s how you "dial in" some of the tap voltage machines to perfection and I’ve never been a fan of that method.

Good to know about the phase converter and that welding machines don’t like it. That keeps me from looking at a really expensive model. Both of the units that I’ve been eyeballing are single phase and only the miller could run on 3 phase.
Home built phase converters??? I'm going to leave that alone and keep myself out of trouble ;)
Thank you Dave
-Clif
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-09-2009 16:39
Clif

If you are directly comparing the Lincoln PowerMig 350  and the Miller 350P I don't think you can really go wrong.

Both come in at about 4K.

I think the Lincoln has a few more tools, meaning it has greater versatility.  350MP can run GMAW, FCAW, SMAW and DC/GTAW while the Miller 350P is strictly a GMAW/FCAW machine.

Miller 350P has a 4 roller drive unit compared to Lincoln's two roller setup..  This is an advantage for Miller.  Pushing aluminum is never the best way to go, but it can be done pretty well with the Miller 350P. 

Both lincoln and miller run aluminum very well with push-pull or spool gun setups..  For GMAWP of aluminum a slight advantage belongs to Lincoln 350mp in my opinion due to the "Pulse on Pulse" wave form package.  The Miller is also Excellent with aluminum GMAWP, Just a slight step below the Lincoln.

Lincoln is also more expandable when it comes to GMAWP programming..  This doesn't mean much to most folks, but when a new pulse program comes out for Inconel, it can be downloaded into the Lincoln 350MP.. With the Miller you get what you get.. No expansion capabilities.

Both are inverters and can accept single or three phase input.

Both are top shelf power supplies than won't disappoint. 

For traditional GMAW/FCAW  I would say it is a push... Both can short circuit and spray solid wire nicely and can run FCAW up to 1/16" with no trouble at all.

I don't like the Bernard Centerfire consumables that come with the Miller (with no bloody options for anything else)  Centerfire consumables are poor short circuit gmaw consumables as they cannot be configured with the contact tube beyond the nozzel end.  The Lincolns come with the time proven Tweco #4 style consumables on their Mig Guns.

Lincoln is more versatile and can do pretty much everything but GTAW of AC aluminum.

I've run them both and think either one can make somebody happy (and some money).  It comes down to what you expect to be doing.  Both machines have excellent strong points.
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-09-2009 18:53
Lawrence,
The pulse options work when a spool gun is attached right? I already have a GTAW unit that has AC, a Lincoln precision tig 185, so running Al isn’t the biggest factor for getting a GMAW. I know I’d be duplicating the SMAW and GTAW, but I never see having backups as a bad thing. Other than that the Lincoln sounds like a winner. I’m a big fan of expandability, so being able to download new settings sounds like a really nice feature.
Thank you
-Clif
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-09-2009 19:41
Cliff

Both power supplies will pulse with and without a spool gun or push-pull setup.
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-09-2009 19:49
I figured as much but it wasn't spelled out anywhere I was reading.
Now I just have to start saving up a little bit...

Thank You Lawrence
Parent - - By Pat (**) Date 08-09-2009 20:40
Cliff,

I agree 100% with Lawrence. I have a relative with the 350 Lincoln, and he has never had a problem with it. Also as stated, the Lincoln is upgradeable in regards to the updating of programs. At work we have a Miller 350P. For our purposes it is a fine dependable machine that has taken the abuse from people that should not be allowed near a welder. As Lawrence mentioned, the Bernard gun has been a big disappointment. The consumables for the gun are I believe more expensive than traditional guns. We have asked for a new gun for the MM350P, and hopefully we will be getting one shortly. Another thing about the Bernard Centerfire gun (we have the 400 amp version) is that it feels awkward and bulky compared to the more traditional guns
Parent - - By jr1 (*) Date 08-10-2009 03:39
I use a Lincoln PowerMig 350, and it is a great machine. It has the factory roll around cart, with the dual bottle rack on the back. This is one fine machine. I keep the 2 most common used gases on the cart, and roll it into position. I haven't figured out how to bake cookies with it yet, but it will do so much else, that I can get by without those cookies. The spray transfer and pulse, are great, yet you can do light gauge, in short circuit mode. Don't take one for a "test ride", and unless you are planning on buying. I think it will get your attention.
Parent - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-10-2009 22:49
What if you opened the case up and ran it until it the high temp kicked on, mabye the transformer will be hot enough for cookie baking? ;)
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-10-2009 02:35
I got some gear from a guy who has a Miller 350P with a push gun and spool gun. He likes it. It did seem real nice, but I didn't get to play with it. If You can swing the cost, I think it or the Lincoln would satisfy You. Those old school machines Like I have don't have pulsing, instrumentation or any of the modern gee wiz stuff, but they are cheap & reliable.
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 08-10-2009 13:02
I have a Miller 350P. Good machine but if I were to buy another I would probably look for something else. The 350P will only pulse with 0.35 and 0.45 steel wire. I sometimes weld on thin wall tubes and would like to try pulse with 0.30 wire but no can do.

As far as the spool gun, even if you have a TIG unit, I think you will find the spool gun with AL wire very handy and quick for many Aluminum aplications. I use it all the time.

To me the best feature of the pulse is the quick wire speed changes with out fine tuning the voltage setting. I can never remember where it ran good last. I do change the arc contol some with different wire speed. 
Parent - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-10-2009 22:55
"The 350P will only pulse with 0.35 and 0.45 steel wire." That just sold me on the Lincoln :)
I was planing on playing around with a bunch of the smaller .dia wires so that is a big check against the Miller.
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-10-2009 23:02
Dave, don’t get me wrong, if I just wanted a wire thrower that would run now and forever, id be leaning towards an ESAB because I’ve always enjoyed running them when I get the chance. Heck if I could get 3 phase id go for an older big ESAB like the one I first learned to GMAW with. They always had some of the smoothest arcs and nicest control compared to the miller beasts that I’ve been stuck using. I've never got to give a big Lincoln a fair trial against either ESAB or miller because all of the big Lincolns that I’ve ever used were horribly mishandled and abused.
But if I’m going to spend money, especially on something new, I’m going to get all the bells and  whistles just so I don’t kick myself later on when I find a need/want for them ;) :)
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 08-11-2009 00:05
Plasma, Bought the lincoln 350P last year for a big structural aluminum job. Hands down best wire feed machine ever owned. With the push/pull gun you can run aluminum in about 4 hrs. practice ,the settings are preprogramed for your specific application and you can't vary away enough to get into trouble. Also the push/pull gun makes using a spool gun seem like stone age technology, my guys are always arguing over who's job needs it most. Price is about 5000.00 w/push gun and standard gun. Going to buy 1 or 2 more at tax deduction time. I also run some miller equipment but not in the shop. PS. SIXBURGH ,HOME OF THE SUPER BOWL CHAMPS AND LORD STANLEY
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 08-11-2009 00:28
Does the push-pull setup help feeding flux cores or other various small wires, like a silicone bronze or some other softer metal or is the difference only noticeable with Al?
I really don't work with much Al so a spool gun would handle anything I was going to do that I wouldn’t end up tigging.
Also, what exactly is different with the push pull setup in terms of consumables like liners, is it a standard off the shelf deal?
Could I add one on later if I decided I needed it?

Thanks a bunch!
-Clif
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 08-11-2009 00:47
Plasma, Don't run any flux cored wires but if their soft/brittle a push/pull solves all these problems we also tig aluminum but for heavy structurals ( 250 amps or higher mig's the way to go) You can add the gun later it's an extra with the 350p.  PS. GO STEELERS in the hunt for #7.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-11-2009 06:19
Either the blue or the red will run small diameter wires (other than aluminum) without any pushpull setups.. I think standard rollers go down to .023 and with a standar whip there should be no problems

With GMAWP an .045 wire can join fillets in .040 stainless without burn thru..  In my experience the technology for GMAWP is actually better with the .045 when it comes to stainless.

Knurled rollers are suggested for FCAW  but many folks find that standard rollers are fine if not set too tightly.

A pushpull setup would be pretty spendy if you are only doing rare aluminum jobs.  On the other hand not that much more than a spoolgun.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-12-2009 00:55
Dont these units use the built in feeder for the "push" end of the push-pull setup?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-12-2009 05:03
Yep
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Red Or Blue for a decent GMAW unit...

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