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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / How Does Heat Input Affect Porosity?
- - By tom cooper (**) Date 08-14-2009 13:10
If a GTAW weld procedure for surfacing applications does not impose a travel speed limit, (for instance hardfacing w/Hastelloy or Stellite alloys on a 1030 or 4130 base material (preheat to ~400 deg F))   it is possible that a welder may run at the high amperage limit and move the bead faster than a welder who runs at the lower amperage limit but moves the bead slower.      Both situations at the extreme are allowable within the limits of the qualified procedures. 

But frequently I am seeing identical hardfacing applications completed by different welders that result in different degrees of porosity and different hardness readings.  I am trying to explain this to myself so we can improve. We try very hard to work clean with highest quality gasses, filler rod and equipment. We see the porosity in hardfacing that we don’t see in other welds so I believe our general shop habit is very good to excellent.  As you know, welders do not want to be deliberately mindful of an "inches per minute" requirement if they don't have to, they make their judgments on how the weld is going merely by watching the puddle so I don’t want to impose a travel limit if I don’t have to. 

So my questions are:  Is it possible that greater porosity can be attributed to faster travels speed that becomes necessary due to running at higher amp limit?  and is it possible that lower hardness is attributable to greater dilution brought about by lower travel speed and lower amperage? 
If so, what suggestions can be made to improve?

Thanks
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 13:46
Heat input has greater influence on the weld metal 'after' it has solidified, and this is the influence upon mechanical properties through variances in transformations or segragations, etc. And while there is certainly a relationship of heat input to solidification speed and mechanical properties, it would be, in my opinion, that it is marginal and that there is more of an influence on the ability of porosity to escape with variances in travel speed. In other words with greater heat input the solidified metal will cool slower, though not necessarily, or measurably solidify slower. With greater travel speed the puddle will solidiy quicker and interfere with the ability of gases to escape.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 08-14-2009 14:14
Hi js55,
Does there not have to be a reason for this porosity to be there in the first place ? I agree totally with your statement on solidification but surely if there is no reason for porosity to be there in the first place then it doesn't matter whether you weld slow or fast.?
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 15:32
Shane,
I agree with your addition. Travel speed won't make much of a difference if you don't have control of the big 3, H, N, and O.
In this case I was assuming that all other variables between the welders were equal. Which may not necessarily be the case of course.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-14-2009 14:44
I have seen some welders who think it was very important to adjust the argon flow to the extremes, the flowmeter glass showed condensate :)
Then obviously turbulens can happen and with porosity as a consequence.

Let's try to compare it to welding SS, if a welder welds with high heat/fast travel the cap of the weld can show signs of oxidation, due to the weld being exposed to oxygen before reaching a certain temperature. Could the same be the case with your alloys?

3.2
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 15:36
Welders get some rather odd ideas. I did.
Aspiration can be a problem especially with standard cups.
Gas lenses can make one over confident it their ability to handle high flows.
I've seen welders mess with the flow meters and crank up the gas until they could blow dry their hair with it.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-14-2009 15:39
makes you wonder why they even bother to use the regulating valve :)
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 08-14-2009 16:23 Edited 08-14-2009 16:25
Shane & JS-

I too have wondered where am I getting any gasses to cause porosity and even wonder if what we see as a result of dye checks is really porosity or some form of microcracks (speaking with regard to stellite surfacing).  I have been assuming that anything that looks like a linear is likely to be porocities linked together.    If it is porocity, where does it come from........if you have ever worked with or seen stellite (or any cobalt rod), you will know that it comes with an oxide coating that comes about from their production process. The colors range from bluish green, to green, to gold.    I often wonder if these oxides are the origination of gasses that turn into porocity if travel speed is too slow or if we're trapping these gasses in between ovelapping passes?  Thoughts?

I really don't believe our argon flow is excessive (30-35CFH) or cup size (3/4") is too small as we have such good results on other welds.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 16:34
Hi Tom!

That's on the upper limit to being too much with respect to your flow rate for GTAW but then again, I don't know the specifics to the configuration you're using so, of course I could be judged as being speculative by some... Those numbers make me think of flow rates for GMAW. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-14-2009 16:40
How strange this may sounds....
I agree with your post!

3.2
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-14-2009 16:57
I was doing some cleanup of the database today and discovered that Henry and 3.2 are actually the same person.

Ross
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 17:11
LOL..so there seems to be some kind of inter-self type of struggles there...alter egos at odds with one another....nbl guys

Hope you two know that I'm just busting your chops alittle and ran with ross' comment.... :-)
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-14-2009 17:20
Wait, I'm not positive about this. But without birth certificates, we'll never really know for sure, though.

Ross
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-14-2009 17:21
You will not get my birth certificate, the ink is barely dry!

3.2
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-14-2009 17:42 Edited 08-14-2009 18:30
OK, I'm setting a bad example going off topic. This continues where it should.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=22140

Ross
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 18:46 Edited 08-14-2009 19:08
I confess, I confess!!! The secret is out!!!

Am I now subject to impeachment proceedings?? If so, then I request to be judged by the same Supreme Court justice who was picked to run our former President Clinton's Impeachment trial in the Senate... If he can get acquitted, then there's hope for me after all!!! :) :) :)

Hmmm, now if I were serious about this err, never mind... I'm finding it extremely difficult discussing all of this with myself online so, you all have to excuse me as I hash this out with my alter ego privately. ;) NOT!!! :) :) :) If that isn't poking fun at one's self then I give up!!!

Seriously though, We definitely need more data with respect to actual chemical compositions of both the base as well as surfacing filler material, thickness of material as well as the overlay thickness requirements, current/voltage settings for both slow and high travel speeds,, whether or not pulsing or, some sort of arc control is being utilized, electrode diameter, torch as well as electrode stick out, actual cup size, whether or not a gas lens is being utilized, is there any sort of trailing shield attachment, actual travel speeds for both, torch mounting configuration, environmental conditions surrounding the location of welding, what sort of cleaning procedures if any are being used, etc., etc., etc... I'm sure I left a few out yet, off the top of my head that's all I could come up with at the moment but then again, nobody's perfect!!!

So in other words, giving us as much detailed info as possible will only help us in offering better suggestions that will possibly narrow down the actual root cause(s) of the porosity/hardness issues that you are experiencing Tom. ;) 

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 17:22
Cybil, is that you?

Best regards - Al  ;)
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 18:25
So, which one is Jekyll which one is Hyde?
And just exaclty what has Jekyll been drinking?

Sorry guys. Couldn't resist.  :)
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-14-2009 19:26
Tom,

wow, this thread is just like an avalanche!

Allowing myself to adding some humble points to what the other appreciated gentlemen have already posted, I would say, Yes.

Yes?

Yes!

Yes what?

Hmmm… this however, is not that easy to say. But I promise to keep it extensively short.

In my humble opinion porosity in welding – btw certainly one of the most fascinating physical phenomena – may strongly be influenced by ‘heat input’ (whatsoever this means).

I mean the first fact is that the welds are being conducted as manual applications, isn’t it? This brings – even though working in between the qualified levels – a great fraction of variability to the entire issue. As far as I personally have recognised at those times I had to carry out GTAW ‘hardfacing’ applications, porosity issues were based on a very fine line between filler- (often flux covered as regularly suitable for Gas Welding) and parent metal. It was demanded to keep the dilution ratios low to meet the required hardness levels. This again required to keep the current to welding speed ratios high. I.e. relatively low welding current heights at appropriate welding speeds. This however, points to the direction of weld pool- and degassing reactions. The less the height of weld current, the smaller the weld pool volume and the less the dilution, since the magnitude of weld pool depression equals approximately the square of the weld current chosen. Let’s stay there for a little while and let’s consider the welders who are accomplishing the applications may use exact similar parameters, not only electrical, but also – and in particular – peripheral parameters. That is, electrode to workpiece angle, electrode to workpiece distance,…, and of course, exact similar electrode tip conical angles, electrodes having the same composition, cycles the electrodes have been in use, filler composition, base metal composition, gas flow rates, etc. etc. This, at least from my humble standpoint, should yield quite similar results  in both hardness and porosity, just so, as the application would have been performed by a robot. If however, one of those parameters is changing, e.g. by inclining the torch differently, the weld result may be supposed to change as well. This, by changing both the way of filler- and base metal reaction one to each another and hereby the time for metallurgical reactions, e.g. degassing. Now its
well-known that there are two basic ways of the origin of porosity:

1.  Mechanical porosity generation

2.  Metallurgical porosity generation

Just want to treat the latter of both, as I assume that no kind of primer or cavity is being welded over. So, just as already – and usually – excellently stated by Allan, where do the gases (see js55) like Oxygen, Nitrogen, or Hydrogen come from? I guess, as it should be rather unlikely that these come from the base metals or from the shielding gases, they might come from the combination of the weld pool reactions (filler- and base metal) and the varying conditions from the surroundings, i.e. torch inclination and all these tricky items Henry has also listed in his post. Here we have to consider – from my point of view – two oppositional phenomena. On the one hand:

1.  Welding with low power to reduce the dilution (= proper hardness)
2.  Welding with sufficiently high power to enable the weld pool to appropriately degassing

The secret is to find out the golden mean and this you did, since you’re able to obtain proper results, as you say. As you have mentioned the porosity issues often in coherence with hardfacing applications my assumption is that the gases as listed above may come from high temperature reactions (dissociation processes of eventually fluxes etc. under the involvement of carbon/carbides e.g. to generate Carbon monoxide) and some varying conditions like changing torch inclination angles etc. And the latter again influences the former and of course items like seam solidification geometry and so forth, understandably. I guess this is the reason for that some welders achieve sound results whereas others do excess the narrow process envelope between good and poor result.

I would chose the parameters like they’ve been chosen by those welders who have obtained sound hardfacing results, i.e. meeting both low porosity amounts and appropriate hardness values. Then furthermore I would limit the process envelope towards even those parameters. Then I would have a closer look at the handling performance of those the welders who obtain sound results and would compare those ones with the worse conditions. I guess hereby a first step towards a general clarification could be made, to find out in how far the welders and their skill may have influence on the results and the cause of porosity. There is no offence intended with respect to the welders themselves, but I guess mainly they have it formally in their hands what the final outcome may be.

So far my two cents for what it’s worth.

Best,
Stephan
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-14-2009 17:38
Hello Tom, I just started reading through this thread so forgive me for the late entry. You had mentioned different hardness readings and stated that you wondered if the slower travel speeds had possibly caused higher dilution and possibly brought about the hardness differences. I believe you have likely answered your own question there. With the additional dilution I believe it would make perfect sense that the hardness properties might be reduced. A long time ago another poster here had made a comment that has stuck with me since that time and in my judgement has had a considerable impact on many welding related issues. Simply put, GTAW has one of the highest dilution rates of most general processes, ie. FCAW, GMAW, SMAW. I don't know for sure how some of the other more recent processes would stack up in comparison to GTAW, but I believe this has merit to explain a part of your question. As to the porosity issue: are there possibly any elements in the surfacing alloys that might be reactive in any way with the base materials? If so, then possibly, as many of the others have eluded to, a higher travel speed and torch heat setting might indeed allow for "too" rapid of a puddle solidification to allow the gases to escape. I will certainly be following this thread and await hearing of it's resolution. Keep us all posted. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 18:35
Dilution will most definately reduce hardness. Its been awhile since I've done overlay stuff but GTAW would not be my first choice for overlay of any kind, hardfacing or corrosion. Its slow and with high dilution. SAW has high dilution as well but is much faster and you can actually get it down to about 15% with good control. Its tough gettin GTAW that low. Pulse GMAW is my preference for overlay. It allows heat control, is productive and lends itself to machine applications and good dilution control.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-14-2009 19:38 Edited 08-14-2009 20:48
Hey Jeff,

I agree and just to add, recently when I was going over some of the videos in the online course offerings from MIT, I came across a video from Kawasaki Steel Corporation which was showing how a modified version of SAW overlaying (A sort of electro-slag process) method called "MAGLAY" was being utilized by them to improve many issues with conventional overlay methods experienced when strip surfacing of thick RPV's Reactor Pressure Vessels by the addition of electromagnetic excitation of both the slag as well as the weld pool itself... This process was developed in the 1980's and is used in other industrial applications as well.

Anywho, Here's the link to the video, and it does require "Quicktime" Video player to view as well as searching for it once one reaches the link... For example, once one is at the link posted below, the next step is to search for the video since there's no direct url link to the video itself... So once there, then move your cursor to the right upper box where it says:
"3.37 Joining Processes", then click the drop down menu, and scroll down until you see "Welding Videos" then look in the box below on the screen to see which are available, and click "MAGLAY" You should then see a small screen (Quicktime presentation) that will start showing the video... Enjoy!!! :) :) :) :

http://web.mit.edu/3.37/www/frame.html

If indeed the porosity is being influenced by factors that cannot be minimized by adjustments in the procedure itself, then a possible solution could be the incorporation of two techniques such as electro-magnetic stimulation of the weld pool via the arc as well as pulse frequency modulation of the heat input itself to have better control of dilution as well as heat input to have better results in your hardness results Tom... Cyclomatic has some controls available that may or may not be applicable for your situation... Here's a link:

http://www.jetline.com/product.aspx?i=14523&c=31&pp=8&sb=0&p=0

Nontheless, if the weld pool is stimulated, stirred, agitated -so to speak, and the heat input is controlled - IMHO, I believe that these two additional aids are worth looking into at the very least.  

Respectfully,
Henry 
Parent - By tom cooper (**) Date 08-20-2009 17:25
Henry-
That is a brilliant idea- we happen to have a Metalax system that I have grown to hate, but this hardsurfacing application might be a situiation that could make a difference!!!  I need to work on that.  Thanks.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-14-2009 21:39
Hello again Tom, had one other thought here. Quite a few years ago I worked for a local machine shop/fab shop, they would do quite a bit of stellite overlay work on valve poppets on pumps for a local chemical company. Some of the items that we built up with stellite overlay required machining processes prior to the overlay being done. I do recall a few instances where the machining fluids hadn't been properly cleaned from the parts prior to the welding taking place. Even though preheats were being applied prior to the welding the preheat only managed to burn off a portion of chemicals and left residuals which then contaminated the overlays. Hence, they appropriately instituted a specific cleaning procedure as a part of the welding procedure. Is there any possibility of anything like this occuring in some of these instances? Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 08-15-2009 06:44 Edited 08-15-2009 07:26
Hi to all and long time no post...  Excellent thread

Tom again you post a real world thought on a real world problem  ...you always bring up good ones it seems.

Henry thank you for bringing up the mechanical/physical variables...I wonder are both extremes using the same setup save heat???

Stephan   BRAVO for bringing to light my first thoughts....the human element!!!!!  Good ideas on pursuing parameters as well.

All these posts have basically said more then I could add to but:

Tom generally in my experience hardfacing and harder alloys like titanium, "stellite", Various hard surfacing rods tend to become more narrow or finicky in their application with regard to travel speed and heat input despite acceptable range limits imposed by the engineering authority or recommended weld parameters imposed by suppliers etc.   The narrow part comes in from being less forgiving of parameter and physical torch/material feed habits of your welders.   That in a nutshell was what Stephan was so eloquently and gently explaining.  Hard physical parameters are great for automated welding processes, but sometimes are nothing more then a general "loose" guideline when it comes to manual welding ESPECIALLY TIG!   I know you are good at chasing down issues like cleaning procedures and proper setup parameters.....Allan could have a good point about that tho.  BUT I would bet I could watch these guys weld the joints and before I could finish 1-2 beers I could see a problem causing that bubble....course I think every poster on this thread could do the same and we are not there and you are, trying to figure it out.   All variables being equal with the exception of 1. the welder and 2. the heat input and travel speed with both being within acceptable recommended limits   well then I think you just have to look to the welders particular application of their physical habits.  The proof is in the Kodak....what is working and work toward that end.

edit: Look to an alloy that generates great variances in porosity with regard to travel speed/deposit speed(amount) and heat input   aluminum is Highly sensitive in that area during gtaw...regardless of parameters the welders must adjust to that sweet spot combination or get bad results.

Size of the rod being used or very different feed habits can have a profound effect on your results as well Tom...despite visual appearance the deposit or each daub if you will can greatly effect the speed at which that puddle is freezing.

my measily humble $.02
Tommy
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-15-2009 16:37
Tommy,

as usual I must 100% agree with you, excellent thread and good points coming from you and all the others.

Once more I've learned a lot by my short trip into the forum!

In particluar also the items Phil Thomas has stated were extremely interesting. Didn't know by now that the fillers - even though I mean to know that these rods are cast material - are afflicted with 'cavities'. On the other hand, it appears quite understandable, since why should those 'casts' be so much different to other cast metals?

However, by adding all the points a very reasonable way seems to me would be what Henry has stated as he said (quote): "... then a possible solution could be the incorporation of two techniques such as electro-magnetic stimulation of the weld pool via the arc as well as pulse frequency modulation of the heat input itself to have better control of dilution as well as heat input to have better results in your hardness results Tom... " (unquote).

I can remember an application where we have solved a severe porosity (blowhole) problem, when semi-automatic GTAW autogenous joining of thin walled stainless steel half-shells to small pressure vessels. Using a relatively high pulse frequency could fix the issue sustainably.

I guess, pursuing a well designed combination of what's been stated by you and all the other appreciated gentlemen, could yield a considerable likelihood to improve the situation in the shop.

All the best and thanks again,
Stephan
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 08-20-2009 17:34
This is a possible source of problems, one we have looked at and dismissed. BUT!!! you're mention of it makes me think that a specific QA checkoff on alcohol cleaning all surfcaes could easily be instituted before weld begins.

In an earlier post you mentioned (and also hinted at by Stephan)   possibly any elements in the surfacing alloys that might be reactive in any way with the base materials?   How would we know what those reactive elements might be? certainly sulphur and phospherous might be problematic, but they would/should be down in the trace %'s.  What else could there be?

Thanks.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 08-20-2009 18:13
Hello Tom, I believe Phil Thomas has probably the most information that could address those "elements" that could cause the gassing issues. I might suggest PM'ing him with your specific hardsurfacing scenarios(materials, surfacing alloys) and have the information to address possible specifics. Phil is with Stoody and if he doesn't personally have the information he likely has access to those who would. You also mentioned sulfur and phosphur, I believe they are components of a number of machining fluids, so if any machining was taking place prior to the welding without proper cleaning you could possibly see contamination from those products. Have you seen any improvements to date on this issue? Best regards, Allan
Parent - By PhilThomas (**) Date 08-15-2009 14:49
To expand on what others have said:

1.  The differences in hardness readings can certainly be a direct result of the difference in parameters - due to varying base metal dilution.  If one of the techniques results in higher dilution, the hardnesses will drop.  A cross section and macro etch will demonstrate this nicely for the welders.

2.  Sometimes porosity in cobalt overlays is compared to porosity in standard joining filler metals and that can lead you in the wrong direction.  Unless you are experiencing porosity due to poor gas flow (aspiration due to excessive gas flow and/or excessive travel angle of the torch, insufficient flow due to too small a gas cup or a leak) then you may be faced more with what is referred to a "gassing" from the deposit itself which will happen even with proper gas flow.  Cobalt puddles have a tenacious oxide layer - one that is very sluggish -  that forms just behind the molten area (you will see the islands begin to float to the rear just behind where the arc is heating the front edge) and it is important to ensure the gases generated during rod melting and resolidification can escape.  The rod itself can be used to "break up" the oxide islands or the arc can be slowed and aimed a bit more to the rear to remelt the oxide until you see no more bubbles.

So in both cases - gassing and hardness - the parameters (esp. travel speed) CAN have a major impact.  Even with the best WPS, welding these overlays is highly dependant upon watching the puddle just behind the arc to ensure you aren't leaving trapped gas.  Higher amps (unless a LOT higher) won't speed up the outgassing of the puddle, it is basically travel speed related.

Another poster said "assuming you aren't welding over a cavity" - which is always a concern - but it is important to note that there is often a cavity WITHIN the rod about every inch or so.  It is very small, but all you have to do is cut the rod at the witness mark to see it.  So again - careful observation of the melting of the rod is critical to success.

HTH
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / How Does Heat Input Affect Porosity?

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