Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / Has anybody read this article yet?
- - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-15-2009 00:48 Edited 08-15-2009 06:03
If this is even halfway accurate as to what is actually occurring in nuclear reactors, then this is some really scary stuff!!! If one of these do fail, they will make 9-11 look like amateur hour in comparison!!! 

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/environm/besse/davisbe7.htm

I have read some related articles, and if I remember correctly, there was a discussion or mention previously in the forum regarding the corrosion/thermal embrittlement occurring in the Reactor Pressure Vessels, otherwise known as the "RPV's."

Enjoy the read or shall I say instead; Please don't get too alarmed!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 08-15-2009 02:47
I guess I'm missing whatever part of the website that looks like "scary stuff".  Maybe you could point me to the link you were reading.

Yes, embrittlement of the vessel does occur, but at an extremely low rate.  There are specimens inserted in removable containers in each RPV in the area of highest neutron flux.  These specimens are removed at scheduled intervals during the life of a reactor and subjected to Charpy V-notch testing to confirm the condition of the vessel and the rate of embrittlement.  When (or if) the test specimens eventually show less than 50 ft-lb of absorbed energy, the vessel must be removed from service.  This is a normal part of the design life of the plant.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-15-2009 06:08 Edited 08-15-2009 07:21
Hi MBSims!

I apologize for posting the incorrect link... For some reason or another, the "Thorium power" link was posted instead. The correct link is now posted. :)

In fact, if one reads the article I've posted in this post below, regarding the use of an alternative fuel such as Thorium, one would at least see the possibility of enhanced safety via the use of Thorium dioxide as opposed to uranium dioxide benefits the cladding in the rods and the RPV's (Reactor Pressure Vessels) from any leakage as well...

The fact that Thorium dioxide is much more stable than uranium dioxide which provides the less likely hood that the fuel pellets would chemically react with the metal cladding around them, or with the cooling water should there be a breach in the protective cladding... Also, the thermal conductivity is 10 to 15 % higher than that of uranium dioxide making it easier for heat to flow out of the slender fuel rods inside a reactor... In addition to that, Thorium dioxide has a higher melting point of about 500 degrees celsius than that of uranium dioxide, and this difference provides anadded margin of safety in the event of a temporary power surge or loss of coolant.

One can read these facts in the .pdf link below on page 4 0f 11, third paragraph from the top of the page:

http://www.thoriumpower.com/files/Thorium_Fuel_for_Nuclear_Energy_by_Kazimi.pdf

More information regarding Thorium based nuclear power can be found in this link below which is the link I inadvertently posted in this post instead by mistake:

http://www.thoriumpower.com/default2.asp?nav=technology_solutions&subnav=tech_pub

This one explains an assessment by Westinghouse regarding the potential  application of this technology for the disposition of weapons grade plutonium as well as commercial grade Pu, and how it's already been proven in an earlier program monitored by the Brookhaven National Labs... As well as Th/U oxide fuel technology proven also when it was implemented in the US commercial reactors such as Indian Point, and Shippingport with several fuel loads in the 1960's:

http://www.thoriumpower.com/files/Westinghouse_Assessment.pdf

An interesting read or two, to say the least. Enjoy!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-17-2009 13:24 Edited 08-17-2009 13:30
Did a quick peruse and I have a few points.
First of all, what juggernaut is it of which he speaks? This to me smacks of hidden agenda and casts a shadow over the whole argument.
I thought the indictment of 'super alloy' terminology was a bit adolescent. We have super duplexes, super austenitics, super ferritics, super martensitics, etc. Its a common marketing phraseology and nobody is deluding themselves, which seemed to be the implication, that these alloys are the 'end all' of metallurgical solutions.
I also believe that the NRC pretending they don't understand embrittlment is just patently false. There was this whole discussion of how things change with time under heat regimes as if its some kind of befuddling mystery being ignored. To say that we may not fully understand it, which is certainly valid, is not the same thing as saying we are blindly ignoring this phenomena and installing these materials without any idea of how they will react. We at least have some idea. Isn't that what creep testing is all about?

My overall assessment to what I read, and I did not read it all yet, was that the author, though having some very valid concerns worthy of serious consideration, was preying upon ignorance to stop that juggernaut!!
Do we need to "stop the juggernaut", whatever that may be? Or perhaps investigate on a case by case basis those concerns he may have?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-17-2009 14:55 Edited 08-17-2009 15:13
Hi Jeff!

That's why I wrote the last sentence.;)

The article at times read as if some of the so-called facts are extracted from a fictional novel when referring to the mysterious disappearances, the firings of this Dr. Siegel, the so-called cover-ups, the acts of censorship towards this Dr. Siegel from various institutions and the way he describes the extent of the corrosion subsequently found in the RPV @ The Davis-Besse Plant in Ohio as a result of a combination of factors which read as somewhat astonishing as well as frightening if it were even halfway true.;) Conspiracy theorist??? More than likely and yet, it does grabs your attention initially! :) :) ;) The only problem is the challenge in hunting down the validity of the so-called factoids listed in the article which I believe was written in the manner chosen intentionally - so that more than likely no one would follow up on. ;)

I only wanted to get some perspectives from other individuals in here that have some experience with some of the scenarios written in this article, or is it a short story with some hidden agendas as part of the message. :) :) :) I do appreciate your initial observations. ;)

What do you think about the articles I posted regarding the use of Thorium?

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By GRoberts (***) Date 08-18-2009 00:46
The article is a joke.  You don't even have to know anything about nuclear to poke metallurgical holes in it.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-18-2009 02:37 Edited 08-18-2009 14:24
Which article are you referring to? the first one? or the Thorium based nuclear power articles???

Also If you would, could you please be a bit more specific regarding to what you're referring to when you mentioned that one can poke metallurgical holes in it, so that I can better understand what you're saying. ;) I mean, then why does Toshiba, the current parent company of Westinghouse) even bother to conduct this study:

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpes/3/1/51/_pdf

Also, why would the Japanese atomic Energy Agency conduct this study in 2005 based on what happened at Davis-Besse in 2002???

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpes/3/1/146/_pdf

Hmmm... It make one kind of wonder just how exaggerated these warnings are coming from this article. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-18-2009 09:46 Edited 08-18-2009 14:29
Here's another article which may raise some eyebrows:

http://www.iasmirt.org/iasmirt-2/SMiRT18/P01_4.pdf

This Proposed Bulletin from the NRC essentially validates the situation that may or may not have been exaggerated in the original article in the first post of this thread:

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/pressure-boundary-integrity/upper-head-issues/upper-head-files/acrsslides7_11_01.pdf

Here are some actual photographs taken at the Davis-Besse Nuclear Station:

This first one is described in the following paragraph:  
NRC and FirstEnergy were in possession of this photo of Davis-Besse reactor vessel head taken during the April 2000 refueling and maintenance outage just prior to allowing the reactor restart for its operational run to the February 16, 2002 shutdown. Photo clearly indicates extensive corrosion occurring on vessel head.

Here are some related articles in .pdf format:

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/presentationricfuelperformance03082005.pdf

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/fuelltr02282005commissionsdp.pdf

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/agedbgao2004nrcneeds.pdf

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/agenirspchnrcres10222003.pdf

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/agecaseforclosingoyst102003.pdf

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/agenirsspchric04162003.pdf

With respect to this .pdf fact sheet, I disagree with the last paragraph statement in which the NIRS encourages everyone reading to call theri congressional reps. in order to stop expansion of the nuclear industry, and instead work with the NRC to establish new protocols to ensure that the materials to be used in newly designed plants which are in the process of being constructed, use only proven materials that can "cut the mustard - so to speak" by lasting to their intended design life cycles by using much more conservative methods of life cycle estimation since we already have the data available to do this already!!! ;) :

http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/agenirsfctshtstpvessel072003.pdf

This one is rather interesting as one will find out when they read the "Lessons learned report" written by the NRC which I will post under this .pdf file:

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/agenirsltrnrccom06202003dblltf.pdf

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/commission/tr/2003/20030204.pdf

Here's the transcript of the NRC meeting:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/commission/tr/2003/20030204.pdf

This the NIRS's follow up letter to the NRC afterwards:

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/agenirsltrnrc02142003dbbrief.pdf

Here is the office of the inspector general (OIG) of the NRC's report with a pretty weird opening disclaimer of sorts:

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/oigdavisbesse120302.pdf

Finally, here are some internal memo's from the NRC regarding the above mentioned reports:

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/db20011129comtanotes.pdf

These people were more interested in profit margins rather than safety regulations which they are responsible for as a federal regulatory body!!! Check this out:

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/aging/db20011121comtaexchange.pdf

This one is regarding to the TVA's Browns Ferry plant;

http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/brownsferryfactsheet.pdf

To be totally fair this is the compilation of data from the NRC and it starts with this .pdf file followed by others:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/prv.html

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/vessel-head-degradation/vessel-head-degradation-files/order-rpv-inspections.pdf

This one is an NRC web page link:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/bulletins/2002/bl02001.html

And another one:

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/vessel-head-degradation/plant-specific-information.html

Finally, here are the all important images that I know most of you want to see for yourselves:

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/vessel-head-degradation/images.html

A picture, or two speaks of a thousand words:

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/vessel-head-degradation/vessel-head-degradation-files/top-view-of-cavity.pdf

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/vessel-head-degradation/vessel-head-degradation-files/crack-in-cladding.pdf

Here's another set of issues unrelated as well as indirectly related which the NRC is addressing:

http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/pressure-boundary-integrity/weld-issues/index.html

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/commission/secys/2007/secy2007-0104/enclosure3.pdf

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/acrs/letters/2003/r2021.html

Here is an ORNL review:

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev25-34/chapter6sb5.htm

An interesting article about newer methods of testing methodologies with respect to RPV materials.:

http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/pres/119907.pdf

Another interesting article from Oak Ridge National Labs (ORNL):

http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/v823/pres/107281_.pdf

This report was issued for release on January of 2001 by ORNL:

http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/110089.pdf

Another research path being followed by Penn State University to implement the detection of small defect clusters which includes small Cu-rich precipitates, nanovoids, and dislocation loops which are invisible to most detection techniques.:

http://www.mne.psu.edu/motta/PVPOS.HTM

Some more interesting factoids:

http://www.coe.berkeley.edu/labnotes/0704/wirth.html

These folks are doing some important research work as a result of thre above mentioned findings:

http://www.technet.pnl.gov/dme/structural/#contents

In future Nuclear power plant designs, we should consider  some of these types of newer materials:

http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=7364&DID=192193&DOC=FILE.PDF

Another interesting article:

http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2006/isbn9512282631/article7.pdf

Here's a study by the EPRI (Electric Power Research Institute):

http://mydocs.epri.com/docs/public/000000000001011808.pdf

I can go on, and on but I think I'll just stop here!!! ;) I think that about sums it up in a nutshell with this post. ;) :) :)

I look forward to your responses as well as your opinions! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

P.S. Explanations of some of the attached images below...

This one is a diagram showing the extent of the damage:
A diagram showing the extent of severe corrosion through the entire reactor pressure vessel outer wall (nearly 7 inches) with only the stainless steel inner liner (3/16 of an inch in some places) remaining.  The inner liner was bulging out into cavity and cracking from extreme operational pressure of the reactor.

This is a description of the last photo:
Looking down into the Davis-Besse reactor vessel’s corrosion cavity.

More photo's showing different angles

Finally, a photo of the transport delivering a new replacement RPV top cover to Davis-Besse for installation. ;)
A happy ending to this story indeed!!! :) :) :) Talk about "poking Holes!!!" ;) I just couldn't resist that one! :) :) :)
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-03-2009 06:03
That replacement head came from Midland Mich. I took the shot on the flange to shell weld, and multiples on the friction stir welds on the stalks.
I was glad I didn't have to go through the goat rope on the DB end.
Parent - - By GRoberts (***) Date 09-03-2009 00:41
I was referring to the "What's happening to our reactors?" article. 
I'll give you a few examples:

The author says: "these alloys for welding such things as jet engines and nuclear reactor pressure vessels. But it turns out that these so-self-called "SUPER" alloys aren't so super.
The "super" alloys are subject to embrittlement. Other names for "embrittlement" include Wigner's Disease, Ostwald-Ripening, Hardening, Spinodal Decomposition, Overageing (also spelled "overaging"), and "Sensitization" / Osteoporosis (cute; as in "sensitive to fracture")."

In reality, the alloys used for nuclear reactors and jet engines have nothing in common.  Only jet engines use the nickel "super alloys" that are designed to be very strong as well as oxidation/creep resistant.  Since water cooled reactors operate below 700F, there is no need for these "super alloys".  Therefore, you can ignore all the comments above since they aren't relevant.

Another example is this, where the author says:"Also, chemicals can take hold within the microscopic fractures that start to form, and can even run down the chains and sheets, causing further corrosion and/or fatigue and/or brittle fracture etc.." 

The author is talking about brittle fracture, but I think he is trying to describe stress corrosion cracking.  Not to mention, "run down the chains and sheets"  What the heck does that mean?  Since when to low alloy steels have chains and sheets?

Or here is another one, when the author says: "The real question isn't even WHEN will this alloy or that alloy become embrittled? Today? Tomorrow? 20 years from now? Because embrittlement starts immediately, so the only question is, how embrittled are the metals? The answers are hard to find, but the indicators are absolutely terrifying"

I'll admit you have to know a little bit about nuclear to answer this one, but in reality, only the reactor vessel sees enough radiation to become embrittled.  However, that is the reason that it is monitored.  Each reactor vessel has specimens inserted inside the reactor, just outside the core that comes from the same material (i.e. the same heats of forging material and welding consumables).  Because it is closer to the core than the reactor vessel wall, it sees more radiation that the vessel wall.  So periodically, some of that material is removed and tested for toughness.  So for example, after 5 years, some material could be removed and tested, and because it has seen more radiation, it could demonstrate what the reactor pressure vessel toughness is after 10 years.  So indeed, the reactor vessel toughness levels are known well before hand.  The vessel is designed with excess toughness before it goes into service so that the toughness level will never fall below the minimum requirements.  So the answer to the authors question is: they know exactly how embrittled the metals are.

Here is an easy one, where the author says: "It is welded to the outer Pressure Vessel by INCO-182, at least if done in the 1950's-1980's, if not even 1990's to today!? (maybe INCO 82 which may be the same thing (European name))."

Inco 182 is the SMAW version of the same metal as Inco 82, which is solid wire for GTAW/GMAW/SAW/etc.  It has nothing to do with Europe.  If the author doesn't know if they are the same thing or not, why include it? 

Basically, the whole article is just the author is trying to scare people with off the wall, unsubstantiated guesses.

As for your other questions:

Why would Toshiba conduct the laser overlay study?  Well, I'll admit that nuclear reactors aren't perfect.  Unlike the fictional article's premise that nuclear reactors are not inspected, they are inspected on a regular basis.  When flaws are found, this is one way to fix them.  At one point, it was thought that alloy 600 was immune to stress corrosion cracking.  However, it was not.  It has known problems with known solutions.  The laser cladding is one type of solution.

As for the other article on core thermocouples, would you not want reactor vendors to study ways to make them safer?  It is their duty to make them as safe as possible, you can't criticize them for studying it.  The Davis-Besse issue is another matter.  The main problem was a worker fraud from what I understand.  The guy went to jail.  If that had not happened, the problem could have been addressed long before the reactor head had become corroded to that extent.  However, it can also be used as an example of how much design margin that reactors have.

If you want to read something worthwhile about nuclear power, try Terrestrial Energy by William Tucker.  It isn't very expensive.

http://www.terrestrialenergy.org/
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-03-2009 04:36
I think you may want to read this thesis just published recently:

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2009/Thesis_Forsik.pdf

This one's not too shabby either:

http://bunter.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2006/Kemp.thesis.pdf

Enjoy the read!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-03-2009 06:57
If we can make this work, then we can certainly build more nuclear power plants without worrying about the long term waste products problem any longer! ;)
However, we MUST make them a H&ll of a lot better in design that what we were building in the 60's and 70's before TMI! ;)

https://lasers.llnl.gov/missions/energy_for_the_future/life/

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-03-2009 15:46 Edited 09-05-2009 00:28
This is from the NRC report on Davis Bessey posted by Gerald (Btw, Thanks for the report! ;) )

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/brochures/br0353/br0353r1.pdf

HEAD DEGRADATION: LESSONS LEARNED

OPERATIONAL EXPERIENCE:

"During the Early 1990's, the NRC and industry recognized the potential for Boric Acid Corrosion of an RPV head. In 1993 the industry and the NRC specifically addressed the possibility of extensive RPV head wastage stemming from undetected VHP nozzle leaks involving axial cracking caused by PWSCC (Pressurized Water Stress Corrosion Cracking).

The industry concluded and the NRC agreed that the likelihood of this happening was low because the VHP nozzle leaks would be detected before significant RPV head degradation could occur. Nevertheless, in spite of this awareness and contrary to this conclusion, the DBNPS event occurred."

IMHO, the industry knew that this might happen although the probability was low, and by reading this again and again, I read a straightforward "Mea Culpa."

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1990/in90010.html

I'm not even gonna debate this any further because the report speaks for itself as do the facts, so believe it or not, it is what it is!!! ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 09-12-2009 23:39 Edited 06-23-2014 18:37
Way back in 1982 when I was only 23 years old, I went to the Zimmer nuclear power plant for an interview.  The night before I went to report in, I turned on the TV.  The first thing I saw was a reporter announcing that they planned to "scrap" a $10,000,000,000 power plant!

The next day, I went for the interview anyway.  At the guard shack, there were half a dozen NRC feds in line in front of me.  My interview got upstaged by the NRC!  They just said, “how would you feel about helping us answer 10,000 non-conformance reports to the NRC”?

Then they gave me an example of one of the big debates.  Weldor “X” did not record the interpass temperature on the log or sign the log in the middle of the vessel wall.  He was hunted down in the oil fields of Saudi so they could probe his "memories" on what the interpass temperature was.  They could not find the answer.  The disposition was scrap the vessel wall because it could cause embrittlement and propagate a rapid crack. Well, I did not get the job because they did scrap that plant.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / Has anybody read this article yet?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill