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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Argon cylinder gas transfer
- - By jr1 (*) Date 08-22-2009 15:17
Was considering trying to make a hose to transfer Argon from my large cylinder, to the more portable small cylinder. I am talking about the small cylinder being rated at the same PSI as, as the large one, and both tanks having current hydro test, for normal safety reasons. I used to fill scuba tanks, and fire rescue air cylinders, so I am familiar with high pressure fills. Just wanted to know if anyone had a simple set up, that they made up and use, to give them some Argon, for a small, more mobile set up.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-22-2009 15:25
Call your local gas supplier... They'll tell you how to set it up as long as you let them know that you'll buy their gas - Heck! It can't hurt to try. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 08-22-2009 17:46
I use to fill those oxygen med bottles too so as you know will need rated high pressure fill lines and fittings rated for high pressure so like Henry said would check with local gas supplier.  Do NOT be using a hose you made not rated for it if it comes loose you or someone else could DIE !   If they won't help you ask who does hydro test on bottles in your area they will also know where to get those high pressure fittings and lines as will fire and rescue sales companies that sell the SCBA bottle refill machines and setups.  
Parent - By Steve.E (**) Date 08-23-2009 07:23
Hi jr , we have some transfer lines at work , they are a small Dia. metal line with a loop mid way along. We purchased them from a welding supplier.
Parent - - By Franz Date 08-24-2009 06:59
This site shows a "transfiller" http://www.paragonmed.com/oxygen.shtml used to refill small bottles from a large Medical oxygen cylinder.  It's about halfway down the page.
The only difference between the oxygen transfiller and what you need to do argon will be the fittings.  Pressures will be similar.

I'd suggest minimally a 5000psi teflon lined hose available from a shop building hydraulic hoses.  Don't tell them what your intended use is or they won't sell the hose to you.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-25-2009 00:23
It is illegal for anyone other than the owner (of the cylinder) to refill an empty or to transfer gas from one cylinder to another.

Al
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-25-2009 02:18
Does this mean that refilling a "customer owned" bottle is legal? Does the DOT restrict moving a cylinder if You do refill it?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-25-2009 10:02 Edited 08-25-2009 16:22
I would check with the local DOT regulations as they do sometimes vary from state to state as well as in regions where high traffic is often an important consideration when these DOT's formulate their own regulations...

If someones needs more specific infromation or clarification of the regulations, the USDOT Pipelines and Hazardous materials administration's information center web link:

http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/hazmat/info-center

Here is the link to some of the many different regulations with respect to PHMSA:

http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/hazmat/regs

Here is the PHMSA's link to it's own HAZMAT safety community:

http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/hazmat

Here's an interesting study to say the least:

http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/DownloadableFiles/Files/05H010_Final_Report_12_17_06.pdf

In summary, if you don't know what you're doing by not being properly trained, then you subject yourself to the possible risk of being exposed to a catastrophic failure which may result in one or more fatalities!!! Do you really want to take such an uneducated risk???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 08-25-2009 15:28
Ah you got the homework done for us Henry.  Figured each state has some differences in regulations.  I think it all has to do with regulations on inert (noble) gases which is what argon would be.  Wouldn't think  all same regulations apply to compressed breathing air or medical oxygen but many would if it's bottled and transported all DOT applies.  We had training on refilling SCBA bottles and med oxygen bottles but back then they never went into great details on regulations but did stress our safety and that of others on how things were done and not using equipment that was not made for the job.       

http://chemistry.about.com/od/elementgroups/a/noblegaseslist.htm
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-26-2009 02:01
Now You know why oxygen equipment says "USE NO OIL".
Parent - By Franz Date 08-25-2009 04:37
Hell of a lot of things are illegal, like voting more than once in an election, or voting where you don't live, but it damn sure doesn't stop it.

Ill Eagle is a sick bird!
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-25-2009 16:01
ANSI Z49.1 Safety in Welding, Cutting, and Allied Processes

10.8.1.3
"No person other than the gas supplier shall mix gasses in a cylinder or transfill gasses from one cylinder to another."
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-25-2009 04:44
Do not mess with this on your own, leave for the pro's

3.2
Parent - - By Northweldor (***) Date 08-25-2009 12:04
After reading and viewing the very thorough fatal incident study and report that Henry cited, I also think gas transfer should be left to the pros , since a contaminated home-built argon transfer set-up could easily be sold and used for oxygen transfer, and the scuba/oxygen market is tempting. (In the above case, dive shop professionals may not have known that their own equipment was contaminated).
Parent - - By Franz Date 08-26-2009 01:01
After meeting many of the "pros" (20 year old dropouts with low IQs and strong backs), and being hands on with the state of the art fill equipment, I'll state very clearly, filling a cylinder from another cylinder of gas is NOT rocket science.  Hells bells I been drifting propane from the farm tank to the forklift & BBQ tanks for 35 years.  I've also cascaded oxygen and helium as well as argon with no problem. 

When a man asks how to drift argon from one cylinder telling him it ain't safe is bullcrap.  Even if he was asking how to cascade argon so he could maximize content of the small bottle it would still be a safe procedure.  People barely above the level of Village Idiot are transfilling Co2 and Nitrogen into paintball guns every day in this country, and Co2 is damn dangerous due to the thermal possibility. 

Scaring the crap out of people that a simple procedure is dangerous is totally WRONG.  This country is in a world of crap because people are ignorant and scared to say nothing of miseducated, and that is wrong too.  Yes, stupid people do eliminate themselves from the breeding pool by attempting things they don't know how to do but that's just Nature's way. 

Last I checked weldors were generally men with a set and a few women too who weren't scared of their shadow. 
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-26-2009 04:40
And the 2009 recipient of the Darwin award is.........
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-26-2009 05:07 Edited 08-26-2009 05:11
It's UNANIMOUS!!! Read Franz's response if one wants to know who walked away with it hands down, or just read it here in case he decides to pull it from view:

"After meeting many of the "pros" (20 year old dropouts with low IQs and strong backs), and being hands on with the state of the art fill equipment, I'll state very clearly, filling a cylinder from another cylinder of gas is NOT rocket science.  Hells bells I been drifting propane from the farm tank to the forklift & BBQ tanks for 35 years.  I've also cascaded oxygen and helium as well as argon with no problem.

When a man asks how to drift argon from one cylinder telling him it ain't safe is bullcrap.  Even if he was asking how to cascade argon so he could maximize content of the small bottle it would still be a safe procedure.  People barely above the level of Village Idiot are transfilling Co2 and Nitrogen into paintball guns every day in this country, and Co2 is damn dangerous due to the thermal possibility.

Scaring the crap out of people that a simple procedure is dangerous is totally WRONG.  This country is in a world of crap because people are ignorant and scared to say nothing of miseducated, and that is wrong too.  Yes, stupid people do eliminate themselves from the breeding pool by attempting things they don't know how to do but that's just Nature's way."

"Last I checked weldors were generally men with a set and a few women too who weren't scared of their shadow." 

I wish that all I could say to this would be simple "WOW" but, I just couldn't resist revealing the response for what it actually is...
"MALE COW EXCREMENT!!!" :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-26-2009 04:51 Edited 08-26-2009 04:56
Franz,

So let me get straight what you mean when you say this:
"After meeting many of the "pros" (20 year old dropouts with low IQs and strong backs), and being hands on with the state of the art fill equipment, I'll state very clearly, filling a cylinder from another cylinder of gas is NOT rocket science.  Hells bells I been drifting propane from the farm tank to the forklift & BBQ tanks for 35 years.  I've also cascaded oxygen and helium as well as argon with no problem."

Ummm, hate to burst your bubble err... Well actually I don't but anyway, it was an integral part of rocket science in the beginning!!! Also, let me remind you that propane is a gas that you can smell if there's a leaking connection however, this is not the case with argon!!! And if someone with a lower than average IQ decides to "transfill, cascade, drift" a smaller volume gas cylinder from a larger volume one of argon indoors, and with no ventilation who btw, doesn't even bother to check for leaks at the connection before proceeding to go on with the transfer, then the potential for asphyxiation increases so long as the person is not briefed beforehand about the critical importance of following proper safety procedures prior to commencing a potentially dangerous as well as fatal operation such as the one you describe as being safe!!!

Then you further baffle me with your "MALE COW EXCREMENT" with this remark:

"When a man asks how to drift argon from one cylinder telling him it ain't safe is bullcrap.  Even if he was asking how to cascade argon so he could maximize content of the small bottle it would still be a safe procedure."

Followed by this remark which fly's in the face of any convincing type of Safety training IMHO:

"Scaring the crap out of people that a simple procedure is dangerous is totally WRONG.  This country is in a world of crap because people are ignorant and scared to say nothing of miseducated, and that is wrong too."

Well tell that to all of the families of both men and women who's loved ones died because of being in confined spaces with the air that their lungs once took in while breathing was in very short order replaced with an odorless, colorless gas which effectively prevented their organs from receiving what little oxygen that might have been still present in the confined space by being displaced with the leaking argon gas!!!

I know very well that this could happen as I once was a witness in a similar incident to what I just described many years ago which cost the lives of two good friends who had no way of knowing that the compartment which they were  going to be working in was already displaced with argon as they made their way inside because, the safety inspector had already marked the compartment as being "Safe for Hot work" not more than 1/2 an hour before, and they probably had much bigger sets than you could ever muster!!! So don't patronize me or anyone else for that matter about the inherent safety in performing a drift or a cascade operation with any gas if one is not informed of following the proper safety procedures before performing such an operation and especially in a location with inadequate ventilation!!!

"Yes, stupid people do eliminate themselves from the breeding pool by attempting things they don't know how to do but that's just Nature's way."

Finally, when you made this statement, weren't you admitting that if a person is ill-informed regarding the safety precautions necessary in order to insure that an accident does not occur when performing any potentially (<This is the KEY word here!!!) dangerous as well as potentially FATAL operation - is not something for someone who is giving advice to another person should even concern themselves with because it's just "Nature's way???" Now the question is really simple here...
Who is scaring who???

"SAFETY FIRST WHEN GIVING ANY ADVICE INVOLVING ANY TYPE OF POTENTIALLY FATAL OPERATION ALWAYS" is what I advocate... I REST MY CASE!!!

Henry
Parent - - By Franz Date 08-27-2009 06:20
Hank, Hankipoo, Mr Hankee, I reiterate my previous remark as to you having a disrupted thought process due to excessive breathing of recycled farts.

You remind me of so many of the sunksailors I have run across.  Fortunately, I am being very polite to you as a declared disadvantaged American.  Now go read and memorize another rule book.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 07:28 Edited 08-27-2009 07:38
You are exhibiting an absolutely childish form of behavior in your response which doesn't surprise me considering your track record in here which I invite all to study in depth by bearing witness to your posts in the forum...

So, I'm not even going to continue with what once was a discussion, any further other than to say that you - "Franz" have made it perfectly clear your level of maturity regardless of your age - plain and simple! However, I will pray for you! ;)

Henry
Parent - - By Northweldor (***) Date 08-27-2009 19:06
Franz:

Are you the Franz person who has been banned from other welding forums ( including one he co-founded) for combative and disrespectful remarks to administration and other forum members?
Parent - By Regmanager (**) Date 08-27-2009 19:34
Since I work for a Welding Supply company I will chime in with a little insite. Don't do it.
I have seen many accidents in this business and most have the following words related to them.

"Watch this."
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 20:50
Hi Northweldor!

Long time!!! ;)

It wouldn't surprise me one bit, and that's why I'm no longer going to reply to any more of his responses since this person doesn't even post anything in the forum as fas I can see. ;)

Btw, How are things with you?

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 21:58
There is the proper way to do things and there are many more ways of doing it improperly. Those endeavors that involve little risk may be undertaken by most people, but those that involve a risk to body and limb should be performed by individuals that have been trained on the proper methodology.

Telling people that there is no risk and not telling them the consequences of doing something improperly is irresponsible.

The list of things that can go wrong is too long to include here. The risks are high considering any gas under high pressure is an explosion waiting to happen.

It wasn’t too long ago that someone posted in the Forum of wanting  to use a fire extinguisher bottle as a small argon tank for use on the job. I believe he wanted to know how to refill it from a larger cylinder of argon. Had he tried it, it could have easily ruptured the fire extinguisher cylinder by over pressurizing it.

From dinosaurs bones found in the La Brea Tar Pits to parts and pieces of untrained individual ( that tried to refill small gas tanks) pulled from the tree limbs, Darwin is alive and evidence of his thoughts on evolution abound.

Best regards – Al
Parent - By Franz Date 08-28-2009 04:33
Aparently reading comprehension is beyond the scope of your expertise.  The original post "Was considering trying to make a hose to transfer Argon from my large cylinder, to the more portable small cylinder. I am talking about the small cylinder being rated at the same PSI as, as the large one, and both tanks having current hydro test, for normal safety reasons. I used to fill scuba tanks, and fire rescue air cylinders, so I am familiar with high pressure fills." clearly states the person posing the question is wishing to drift argon from a supplier cylinder to a small cylinder that is in test, and the poster has experience filling SCBA cylinders.

The hazard of doing this is far below the hazard of most hydraulic systems people build on homemade wood splitters and presses. 

What I find very interesting is that none of the self appointed experts bothered to point out how many times the OP will have to employ the transferr hose to recover his investment in the hose and fittings, or that even a 20cf cylinder of argon is basicly a waste of time unless the guy is employing argon in the field to laser weld wedding rings.
Parent - - By Franz Date 08-28-2009 04:25
Only after I told the slimey bustards what to do with their board, and they lied about banning me for 3 full weeks, presuming you're talking about ShytFloorTalk.  Frankly it's real easy for a hairdresser and his female companion of no dignity to do whatever they wish when they have Admin authority.  It's also real easy to bring an action against the soap salesman who owns the site for unauthorized publication of © material.
From the data I see that site is doing really well begging for donations to support a beer fund.
BTW, I also taught the owner how to make a nice profit on his tax filing by using the site as a tax deduction.
From what I hear he screwed that up and doesn't even pretend to run a welding business any more.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-28-2009 04:35
Glad thats all cleared up..

I'll be sure to hang on every golden nugget of wisdom from now on.
Parent - - By Franz Date 08-28-2009 05:00
Lawrence
""Occupation Technical College instructor, CWI/CWE, and industrial welding and process control consultant. ""

Just hang in there pretender, and rest assured if I ever need advice on how ot get stains out of a lab coat you'll be among the first people I call on.

In the meantime, try to remember molten metal can burn you!
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-28-2009 11:30
Banned.
Parent - By Northweldor (***) Date 08-28-2009 11:51
Ross:

Thanks for prompt action, since the forum could have been bombarded with abusive drivel for months. Franz has many good qualities, but is absolutely out of control if you disagree with him.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 22:12
New entry for the farm code.

Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Argon cylinder gas transfer

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