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- - By Stephan (***) Date 08-27-2009 11:22 all of you?

Have considered a while after I read the - excellent - 'obama's welders' thread started in the OTB&G Section.

But it appears to be of international interest meanwhile - GREEN WELDING!

I don't know if this is being worth starting a new thread - besides that one in the Off Topic Bar & Grill - but very seriously asked: 'What is your opinion about this 'Slogan'?'

Or is it rather more than that? I am really struggling by trying to 'classify' this term. Does it deal with the welding in the e.g. wind tower industry, or does it mean lower fume rates or arc radiation to better protect the welder, or does it mean 'healthier' consumables or... even a mysterious combination of all of that?

Who knows, perhaps this is a giant chance for the welding industry in general...

As I mean to have understood the 'Green Welding movement' comes directly from the USA and as we all know how immense the influence is, the US of America do have in the world of welding it would be great to find out what all of you experts are thinking about this!

Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 11:48
I'm thinking it may be a combination of several things, Stephan. And maybe I'm a bit mistrusting of the current adminstration's concern for the health and welfare of our welders, but I suspect it has nothing at all to do with protecting the welder's health or the environment and everything to do with $$$money$$$ to be made off selling "green" this or that items.

Al Gore has completely ruined my perspective of enviromental friendly terms and definitions with his continual deciept and mispresentation of facts for his own personal gain and wealth generation. I am 100% for reducing waste, recycling, cleaning up the environment, bettering the health, safety and welfare of our welders and making companies profitable, so don't take me the wrong way.

Maybe some of the others have more constructive information to add to your thread.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-27-2009 13:03
Hey John!

Thanks a lot for this insight which is most valuable and... most constructive to me!

I can remember very well the discussion held at that time here in the forum and dealing with the 'Global Warming' pros and cons.

Hmmm... that was one good thread! :-)

It makes truly sense what you say. As by reading your statement I have tried to remember myself when this 'Green Welding' - should I provocatively say 'Hype'? - has actually begun.

And honestly spoken, first time I personally have recognised it consciously was about that time Mr. Barack Obama became President of the USA.

Perhaps it really has to do with another way of thinking about 'Global Warming' or 'CO2-emission' issues and those industrial sectors serving the renewable energy field e.g. wind tower welding, but on the other hand I guess finally and at the end of the day it may have to do with "...$$$money$$$...".

And in my humble opinion there's plenty of so-called 'marketing experts' occupied with smart 'strategies' for using this 'wind of change'.

Anyway, as long as there's benefit for all of us, i.e. for the welding community and an improved global climate either, it can't hurt.

I can remember however very well, what my personal first thought was at that time I read 'Green Welding' for the first time. I thought, well, apparently finally they've found out that fumes and gases are yet not that healthy when being inhaled.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-27-2009 12:14
Hello Stephan,
Good to hear from you again.

Not an expert on this subject but IMO "Green Welding" is synonymous with green energy. I consider this anything classified as renewable energy; i.e. wind, solar, geothermal etc.
I am for these form of renewable energy and the jobs they would create. My reservation is that they will more than offset the new jobs with the destruction of the coal industry and not expanding our nuclear, oil and gas industries.

I believe in the "All of the above" answer to our energy needs. Responsible drilling, coal, nuclear, hydroelectric plants and add wind, solar and geothermal and we can meet our own energy needs and decrease or eliminate our dependence on foreign oil from countries that hate us. Yes Hugo, this means you.

Plus, this would lower the cost of energy to the consumer and lower our "carbon footprint". Whether a person believes in global warming, climate change or temperature cycles that cause the earths core temp to fluctuate (and causes some politicians to get uber rich), it is always good to reduce pollution "as low as reasonably achievable."
I'll call that ALARA. There, I just coined a new acronym. Wait, that sounds familiar...
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 13:26
I think that this article may follow along with your contribution to this thread. Check it out and see if you agree.
BTW, It's a blue article, now I'm not pushing blue vs red or any other color....LOL, just found it while " google-'ing "
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-27-2009 13:28

Thanks a lot for allowing me to follow your points.

Yes, that sounds most reasonable what you say. You know, here in Germany they're having besides 'Solar' a special focus in particluar on wind energy. The experts are prospecting a share of ~ 20... 25% of the entire energy generation could be replaced only by wind energy by 2015.

And honestly spoken, this field of industry has certainly created a lot of new welding jobs. Particularly SAW though, but nonetheless.

I am having a very close contact to my colleagues in the US and I had an excellent chat with a friend of mine who has visited a conference - if memory serves correctly it was in Chicago? - and he was extremely enthusiastic on what he has seen and heard. He said to me that it was like somebody has 'pushed a button' and an overwhelming 'Now AHEAD!' was quite tangible among the attendees.

But finally I guess it may come out with what you have stated. That is, a responsible energy mix and here at least, welding is a key to success in general. At least in my humble opinion.

Thanks again and best regards,

P.S. "Yes Hugo, this means you." --> :-):-):-) --> Neat hint! ;-)
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-27-2009 23:49

I attended that conference in Chicago. It was amazing. Former oilman T. Boone Pickens spoke there. Wind power is the fastest growing source of new electricity in the U.S.  A bit slow now because of the credit crisis, though. Lots of welding jobs in the works when they fix whatever happened to the economy last year. Plus, the power grid needs to be redone.  A turbine pays for itself in three years and then lasts 25.

T. Boone said Germany has the best wind technology, but we have the best wind, so we win. As usual.

Parent - - By warmka weld (*) Date 08-28-2009 02:35
We are getting alot of windmills here is southern MN.   Lasts 25 yrs is a pretty big stretch.  Lots of jobs in the upkeep dept.  When does mr. Pickens think the grid will get in shape?  Thats alot of work.  Around here it looks like all other business, someone made some money so everyone else gets into it. Then nobody does. 
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-28-2009 04:35
Last I heard Mr. Pickens pulled the plug on the deal, anybody have any current news?

It seems that without being subsidised, wind power is not cost effective compaired to conventional power generation. Part of the problem is that when the wind doesn't blow more expensive means must be used to keep up with demand. I live only 7 miles from a large nuke plant, but locally they still run gas turbine generators to meet high demand loads. Unlike the nuke plant these can power up and vary output on a short timeframe, but they are expensive to operate.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-28-2009 08:30

thanks a lot for this excellent post!

"It seems that without being subsidised, wind power is not cost effective compaired to conventional power generation.

That's a good point. You're right as to the best of my knowledge.

Even though 100,000+ jobs have been created within the wind energy industry during the past few years, also in Germany this technology is still subsidised when it comes to the energy generation itself. That is, due to 'wind' is by now no, hmmm... how to say... permanent(?) available energy source, e.g. like caloric or nuclear power plants, there are some issues to be solved.

This means, one has to solve the problem of how to 'link' all energy sources in particular however, wind, solar, geothermal,..., to represent and provide a permanent state of energy availability.

There was a very impressive study conducted recently with a German university, showing a concept how this could practically work. The results have caused a widespread international - positive - resonance.

That's good, in my eyes. It shows what the human being might be able to perform by using the 'brain'! :-)

And finally and at the end of the day it is like a German journalist has said recently (freely translated, as usual):

"We are not present on earth for leaving our children a bursting account but a worth living planet!"

Thanks again Dave and by this way also a heartfelt 'THANKS' to all the appreciated fellows who have participated on this humble thread and have allowed me to get a wonderful, most representative and very comprehensive (Shad :-) :-) :-)) insight into your interpretations of 'GREEN WELDING'!

I am curious what the Essen fair 'Welding and Cutting' will bring this year with respect to this topic!


Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-28-2009 11:38

If you go to the Essen show, please stop by the AWS booth and meet my colleagues. Tell them Ross sent you.

Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-28-2009 12:03

Consider it done!

It will be my greatest pleasure!

Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-28-2009 23:17
Hello Stephan, glad to see your renewed participation on the forum as of late. Since you folks are on the topic of "Green" welding I thought it would be appropriate to include a couple of pictures of some of the wind turbines that have been discussed here. My understanding is that these are a part of the largest series of wind farms in the world, they occupy a space equal to the state of South Dakota if I have my stats correct. These are from Abilene, Texas, my two oldest sons are working on this site and I have joined them for a few weeks in between summer and fall quarters at school. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-29-2009 13:42

Thank you so much, Sir!

For both that you are honouring this - rapidly growing - thread by contributing your - as usual - excellent post and these really wonderful pictures!

You know, by having a closer look at picture 3 (looked top down) one can recognise the awesome plenty of weld seams on this wind tower. And following to Henry's post(s) the performance of the next wind turbine generation(s) to come is simply tremendous. It would be quite interesting to know how many meters of - highest qualilty level - welds are executed on those towers. I guess that must be some...

And you know what Allan? It's extremely impressive to see, that your sons are already involved in this technology, what - so my hope - may long-term secure their subsistence!! So you can speak by your own experience, as it were.

Together with the information you have enclosed (quote): "...that these are a part of the largest series of wind farms in the world, they occupy a space equal to the state of South Dakota..." one is hardly tempted to simply agree with the final sentence of one of Henry's posts, saying:

"It's coming!!!" :-):-):-)

Thanks Allan!

Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-29-2009 14:34
  In the town I lived in and still own a place in they erected a bunch of them. I did not get to work on it because I was building transit buses at the time.

They also have a blade on display at the welcome center.

Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-29-2009 14:48

Great information and great pictures either!

Thanks for that!

Hmmm... I wonder how much of welding was needed to erect this nice construction (see attachment)! :-) :-) :-)

Thanks again and best to you,

P.S. I guess as when all the windmill prospective studies really come true, the likelihood seems great for that you may bump into such a project someday. :-)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-29-2009 14:54 Edited 08-29-2009 14:57
  I truly hope to fall into one of these projects in the future.

As for the dutch windmill, well.... LOL it really caught me off guard when they erected it as I did not really not understand it's significance. I later found out that there are/were alot of dutch immigrants in the community and that along with the wind farm project spurred the construction of it.


EDIT: My house is 3 1/2 blocks straight down that very street from the windmill. :-) The building in the background is the county jail attached to the court house.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-29-2009 18:32
Thanks again John!

Hmmm... the Dutch and the windmills. Nice relationship...

Actually they should be the worldwide leading nation with this technology! :-)
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-29-2009 18:34
"Actually they should be the worldwide leading nation with this technology!"

Indeed one would think so my friend. :-)

Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-30-2009 01:36
Hello again Stephan, these towers are 90 meter versions(3 bolted together sections), for dummies such as myself they are 280 feet tall, give or take a bit. The base sections are roughly 14 feet in diameter, The first 60 meters are roughly the same diameter and the last 30 meters are tapered, although I'm not quite sure how much just yet. I believe the blades are roughly 9 tons apiece, here again I'm not exactly sure. I do know that they are much larger when you are standing next to one than they look from a distance. Oddly, they are so proportionate that you don't realize their actual size. The work platforms that you see in a couple of the pictures are 100 feet tall, that gives you something to scale them by. In one of the pictures you will see a few individuals going up on what is basically a window-washers platform, it goes from the ground to the top and is one method of access for servicing purposes. There are also ladders on the inside of the column that provide access to the mechanicals. They have climbers that scale the towers and also climb out on the hub and blade assemblies and repel down them to inspect and sometimes de-ice them.
     In another thread here on the forum another poster mentioned a particular type of tensioning system that was rather different from most that have been traditionally used. I believe that he may have been speaking of something similar to the systems that are employed on these towers. The anchors extend 24 feet deep into the foundations, they are connected and hydraulically tensioned by a special machine and then the nuts are finger tightened against the base flanges and the tensioning system is released. I am guessing that this allows for a very precise load on the fasteners. Gotta run Stephan, 6-12's have been a bit challenging for an old guy like me, just not quite as youthful and resilient as I used to be. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-30-2009 09:47

Thank you so much for these very interesting additional information and I have to thank you twice under the consideration of (quote):

"...6-12's have been a bit challenging for an old guy like me, just not quite as youthful and resilient as I used to be..." :-)

Anyway, I have absorbed every single word of your great post - as usual!

All the best,
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 08-30-2009 04:23
Good to see you posting again Stephan.

Not long back I set up a QA/QC/NDE program at a wind tower shop. The amount of weld depends on the tower design. Currently the majority of these towers are built in four to five can sections. The client in question had several contracts to build these towers, and through them, I had the opportunity to see several other shops as well.
Your caveat of "highest quality welds" is a current industry problem. Quality in general is a problem industry wide. This is also drawing the ire of green friendly persons who no longer back wind as they once did.

I could go on, but I think you've got the idea.

In my opinion, there are four primary considerations outside the grid considerations.
1. The turbine blades themselves
2. The gear box and generator
3. The tower that the turbine assembly rest on
4. The sit preperation and base.

Composites are the current wave for the blades. It also so happens to be something that there is not a lot of precedence to go on. It was thought that using tech from aircraft props was the fix all. That has turned out to be a false assumption. It's like building a 1/10th scale model. Scaling up to 100% of the desired size does not always work. There are many concerns for the blades, but getting the blades to hold together is the primary one. The tech on that scale is fairly new, the inspection criteria is also fairly new. Therefore there is a learning curve to it all, and one that is currently being faced by many wind companies as we speak. there are Homogeneity issues in that isotropic/anisotropic substrate interfaces are causing failures due to design issues, and lack of understanding as to how to properly inspect the final product.

The gear box and generator designs have been seriously complicated. There have been many problems with the machining in question, but for the most part, it's been an engineering issue.

The welding and inspection issues for the towers themselves are another story entirely. To this day, there is not a single world wide agreement on how to go about designing and welding a tower. I've witnessed some companies using D1.1 as the basis, but at the same time, cherry picking which verse they wanted to use to the point they may as well have used no standard at all. For all the facilities I've visited, there seemed to be one prevalent problem when it comes to engineering, welding, and inspection.
There are some high quality welds out there, but there is a disturbing number out there that are not. Without an enforced standard, I suspect there will be a lot more turbines meet the fate of the one depicted in the first link. At one of these facilities I noted not a single welder had been qualified. The joints themselve had not been tested, and that it was basically willy nilly get ir done that caused a tremendous problem for this company. As for the inspection, it wasn't much better.
There were some that could meet the quality concerns, but could not meet the production schedule.

The single most problematic issue is where do you store this power? To this day, that hasn't been answered. If the power could be stored and released later.
Until that problem is resolved, the idea of green energy will be just that, an ideal. Wind, Solar, Tidal, all of them face that one common problem. If you could store the power produced during off peak hours, and deliver it during peak hours, then green energy could in fact take over.

It's late here, so going to turn in. BTW, each of the tower segments are typically made up of 5 to 6 individual cans with a transverse weld in it. each tower section has a flange on either end. For a 200+ foot tower, the base would be in the neibhorhood of 12 to 16 feet and getting narrower as it goes up. The width of the individual can also narrows as it gets on up into the higher segments. By the time it gets to the top, it's been stepped down to the neibhorhood of 8-10 feet in diameter. That should give you a close approximation of how much Butt welding goes into it. The individual platforms and gear add more weld, but they are typically fillet welds for those.

My opinion for what it's worth,
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-30-2009 10:34

yes Sir!

Long time no hear but please believe me the more I'm pleased to read your awesome response!

Currently I'm using every minute to attend the forum before time issues are getting worse again! :-)

Gerald, it took me a while to get an overview over the excellent information contained behind links.

I must admit. Even though I have heard of some more severe issues (collapses in storms, etc.) with those windtowers I would have never thought that those were so dramatic at all!

You know, there was one statement in one report saying: "...The design life of a turbine is about 20 years and this had been up for 19, so it was pretty much at the end of its design life..."

That's truly scary! I hope that not every single wind turbine will finish its life in a collapse after its design life has ended or at least that the likelihood for such catastrophic failures will increase with an increasing service life.

You know what? Your post is most valuable - at least in my humble opinion - because of both having a sober and closer look at the other side of the coin and due to it's containing so much precious at first hand information about the current state of welding at these impressive machines!

We had a discussion - like I mentioned in another post before - after this famous conference in Chicago. And honestly spoken, I must confirm your statement:

"...To this day, there is not a single world wide agreement on how to go about designing and welding a tower.

I mean to know that in Germany they are using the general steel construction standards for welding these towers. But I mean to know as well, as that there are some very critical areas at the tower (e.g. the section around the door) which are stressed extremely high - to say the least - during the wind tower's use.

And your comments like:

"...There are some high quality welds out there, but there is a disturbing number out there that are not." and

"... At one of these facilities I noted not a single welder had been qualified.

are not quite calming either!

One is truly tempted to speak of a kind of 'Hype' when following all the most impressive information you great fellows in common have posted in this thread. Hopefully the (welding) engineering problems may be fixed in a most comprehensive way, which should happen - in my opinion - on a global level. This due to this technology appears to be globally on the run.

And this brings me to an end also, since I personally mean that without the United States of America and in particular the American Welding Society, when it comes to the welding questions, there will be definitely NO proper result for a global standard as long as the expertise of all the fantastic AWS ladies and gentlemen wouldn't be considered!

Thanks again Gerald - great post!

Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 08-30-2009 15:09

Speaking of the doors, there was a very large number of those frames that made it into a variety of manufactures doors with subpar steel. That particular issue is still very much a legal hotbed of action.

I don't normally advocate more red tape, but in this case, It's my belief that a recognized, established organization should step up to the plate and start a central engineering, manufacturing, and inspection program for these towers. CWI, CSWIP, API, IIW, JSNDI, IACS etc none of these programs directly address this.
The nature of this program should be international as these towers are sent around the world from nearly any point in the world.

Until central standards of engineering, manufacturing, and inspection are created, those towers are very likely to lean more and more to the dangerous side in my opinion.

Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-30-2009 16:52

"...Until central standards of engineering, manufacturing, and inspection are created, those towers are very likely to lean more and more to the dangerous side in my opinion." .

Yes, that's what it appears to me as well, unfortunately.

It's good however on the other hand, to see oustanding experienced personnel and experts - just as yourself and an appreciated row of others (in particular also the experts attending this forum) have recognised that something has to stringently happen - rather short-term.

I suppose that kind of discussion was needless to be held as when it came to the commercial use of nuclear energy generation.

Anyway, besides of this, but also relating to this. I am extremely curious in how far the 'Open Arc' processes will be able to replace SAW in this field.

You, as anybody else here in the forum, may know, that I am an 'Open-Arc-Freak' (please forgive me this casual expression but it truly may soonest fit up). But nonetheless and free and frankly confessed, I mean that SAW has some outstandingly impressive advantages vs. some alternative imaginable Open Arc high performance processes, e.g. LASER-GMAW-Hybrid, etc.

It will be very interesting to pursue the near future in this field to see how the 'SAW-alternative' processes have to be tailored to be competitive or even ranked on a similar level!

Parent - - By FixaLinc (****) Date 08-28-2009 15:07
I think T Boone got into it too late this time the best spots to put wind generators are already all taken where the wind blows almost all the time.  Mapping areas to see where the wind blows the most is nothing new I've seen maps from the 1920s & 30s already had that info when companies like Wincharger were in business selling the smaller 6, 12, & 32 volt wind chargers to farmers and ranchers in rural areas for power before electric co-ops were formed after Roosevelt let government help rural areas with such.  I bought out a stash of old Wincharger parts in the early 1980s and when those up for sale was surprised how many were still running those on remote ranching areas that still didn't have power lines.   Like you said there are still times it doesn't blow but not often around here on the edge of our caprock cliffs blows almost all the time.  Other energy companies already have wind farms put in those areas or the rest of that land leased to build more on later.  One wind farm NW of here in New Mexico the electricity is said to go out to Arizona from there.  Talk about building more here on top of caprock but you get away from those cliffs and times the wind won't blow too.  We have seen that when some ranchers depend on windmills still for cattle water and they are having to haul water when wind doesn't blow or put in another electric pump nearby.  We have companies coming in from Denmark and Sweden wanting to build more but the power grid isn't here yet.  I think they are waiting for everyone to go broke so they can get the land cheaper.   There are maintenance crews must be constantly monitoring all the generators.  Have seen ones NW of here struck by lightning or something go wrong and burned up ones laying on ground.  That's what bothers me they get all those flinging blades put up and government jerks things out from under them so no longer profitable and then having a dangerous flying piece of junk on your land falling apart and having to track down the wind farm company to sue them and make them come take it down.  That land will never be the same either they dig huge holes for lots of concrete and trenches for lines so things need to be thought out ahead of time and plan on them being there permanent.  There are way too many snake oil salesmen (T Boone) involved in the new wind energy fad but it's NOT new they have been here before just smaller and larger ones in California, England and Europe has had them for years now.   
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-28-2009 15:24

that's a true piece of a detailed response! Wow!

Please let me ask, as I could read this also with Dave.

You are talking about the grid.

Excuse my ignorance but, does this mean there is a partial lack in distributing the energy across the country?

Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-28-2009 15:38

>Excuse my ignorance but, does this mean there is a partial lack in distributing the energy across the country?

yeah, that is what Pickens is saying....
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-28-2009 16:08

thanks for the link!

This gentleman sounds to me as he would know what he's talking about. In other words, quite seriously - whatsoever this means.

But I guess you all will know him much better than I do.

However, I liked this passage: Quote:

""I'm going to start receiving those turbines in the first quarter of '11 and I don't have that big of a garage to put them in there so I got to start getting ready to use them."

I will keep my fingers crossed for him for that all will work properly by 2011. :-)

What however, I must confess, I did not understand is the relation between the falling gas prices and financing his projects. Is he also involved in the natural gas sector? Have I overlooked something?
Parent - - By FixaLinc (****) Date 08-28-2009 22:10
Stephan,  He is a oil & natural gas man and like all of them didn't get to where he is today by not running over others and why no one here in Texas panhandle trusts him and is skeptical over anything he does or says.  With him it's always about a financial goal in mind whether in the end it's good for mankind or no matter gets ran over to get there.  The rich want control over all our oil, natural gas, coal, water, air you name it.  Just do a google search on "TBoone Pickens Ponzi Scheme" and find out why many don't trust him.

More on those honest good ole boys that are all so conservative and green concerned ?

Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-29-2009 14:03

Wow! That's really tough - to say the least.

Now much better I can understand why Jeff has rest his case in one post by saying:

"Maybe its just the skeptic in me but when BP, GE, and T Boone start talkin Green I smell a con."

Thanks for these valuable information which directly appear to confirm what 'Arctic 510' has so accurately stated in his post as he said (quote):

"...but to show that not everything labeled "green" is so."

Thanks Glen!

Parent - - By FixaLinc (****) Date 08-29-2009 22:11
Well you can bet on one thing for sure they are all in it for the GREEN (money $$$$$ ) and not to save their souls or the future. 
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-30-2009 10:35

"...for sure they are all in it for the GREEN (money $$$$$ ) and not to save their souls or the future."

I hoenstly fear that you're right! :-(

Parent - - By FixaLinc (****) Date 08-30-2009 15:46
Now ole T Boone is preaching about oil prices to hit $300 per barrel.  If he gets everyone to invest in his oil companies hoping it goes up to that he should be able to pay for those wind generators right?  Sadly he is right though if we all don't change our ways somehow oil and OPEC will continue to control us and destroy our world as we now know it.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-30-2009 17:19
Apparently Glen!

The more I seem to know about this gentleman the more I mean to know how the land lies.

It seems as he cannot lose whatsoever will happen in the future. He may be found amongst the - $$$ - winners.

Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-29-2009 02:08
Stephan, there are vast areas of America that have little or no power infastructure, and that is where the wind blows. Population centers are a long way from the best wind areas. Power lines have to be built from the wind farms to places where there is power demand.

On a side note, wind farms are built largely with grant money. Where will the money come from when it is time to rebuild them in 20-25 years?
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-29-2009 14:17
Thanks Dave!

I see. This remembers me on some areas here in Germany. But then related to the natural gas distribution system.

In particular in regions, lying more in the countryside, there are no economic benefits for the large distributors to install pipelines etc.

There the poulation is supplied with propane stored in tanks being installed again adjacent to their houses.

As we are talking about an appropriate infracstructure for distributing the energy. Have you heard of this tremendous project planned by some of the greatest European companies and called DESERTEC?

I'll attach a link for further information:

I guess here one may simply say: "Plenty of work to be done when it comes to 'infrastructure'! Good luck!"

Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-28-2009 08:06

that's really awesome!

Thank you for both on the one hand confirming the similar impressions my fellow had and on the other hand your own and personal insights and expectations.

So finally, it is as it always is!

As soon as the industry of United States of America is going to occupy itself with a particular kind of subject, this will certainly affect the rest of the world.

This again confirms my very own assumptions. As e.g. 'Green Welding' is decided to be a subject of interest the whole world is following you, discussing, presenting and calculating which benefits 'Green Welding' may bring to mankind.

You know, finally - at least in my humble opinion - this shows somewhat very simple.

It shows the extraordinary importance the USA do have for all the decisions to be taken on a global level!

As long as you - that is, the USA - are not going to step ahead all others may say: "Ha, look at those ones! As long as they won't, we won't!"

Or in other words: Nothing goes without you!

No flattering, just the humble interpretation of somebody who is a confessing fan of your great nation. Myself! :-)

Nonetheless I must admit to be also a little proud on what Mr T. Boone Pickens has said. 'Germany has the best wind technology'.

And as I assume that Mr Pickens is a very experienced gentleman and he certainly will know what he's talking about, there should be very little left to be added.

Perhaps he should have said: "Germany has the best wind technology but we have the best wind AND the best welding forum in the world so we MUST win!"

As usual! ;-)

Thanks Ross!

Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 08-27-2009 13:20
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 13:27 about that...we found it at almost the same time. I'm just a slower typist.....LOL
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-27-2009 13:46
waccobird + John Wright! :-)

Most interesting!

Thanks for that! Apparently there's plenty of aspects when it comes to 'Green Welding' isn't it?

Quote from the link: "...good power factor, good energy efficiency..."

This honestly remembers me on the last decision coming from the (almighty) European Union.

It has been decided recently to stop the production of conventional bulbs beginning with September 2009 (100 Watt bulb production is prohibeted from there on) and to be finished by 2012. Those again should be replaced by low-energy light bulbs.

The result (by now): People are hoarding conventional bulbs! Some people purchase hundreds of them to assuring that they never have use others until they die!! And... those low-energy light bulbs contain considerable amounts of mercury what makes them being toxic waste after use!

Hmmm... isn't it a strange world, we're living in? :-)

Thanks again!
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-27-2009 13:56

>those low-energy light bulbs contain considerable amounts of mercury what makes them being toxic waste after use!

Guess what?...they produce those bulbs over in other countries rather than creating jobs here at home, and I suspect it is because of the mercury.
There is enough naturally occuring mercury in our water supplies without adding additional amounts in an effort to save energy. In some ways, I wonder if the scales ever tip in the right direction when weighing out the good and the bad with some of these " green" decisions...or is it based upon economics instead.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-27-2009 15:52
Excellent John!

"In some ways, I wonder if the scales ever tip in the right direction when weighing out the good and the bad with some of these " green" decisions...or is it based upon economics instead."

That's 100% agreed!

And you know what? The "low-energy light bulbs" have already been outmoded meanwhile - at least to the best of my knowledge - by those LED bulbs. Needing just a fraction of the energy compared with both conventional and low-energy bulbs and to be recycled after use as "normal" electronic scrap.

Truly crazy...
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-28-2009 04:41
Combine the word "green" with any other word and You have a catchphrase. Much is marketing hype, some is actually worthwhile.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 08-30-2009 17:45

In my opinion, the LED /'low-energy light bulbs will not be around much longer, and will very likely go out like CD's and LP's did when the digital download age began.
PLED's show strong promise to wipe out the LED and 'energy efficient' market. The technology can be used for point source lighting, video screens, general area lighting, and photovoltaic power production.

Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 08-27-2009 17:55
I know this is a serious discussion but i just couldnt resist. Green welding is burning green welding rods lol. once again i am sorry i just had to say it
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 08-27-2009 18:06
I don't see how welding can be considered "green" when CO2  is the main ingrediant in the shielding gas, and the amount of fumes/smoke that FCAW/ SMAW produces.
Now I can see in the very near future, a marketing person coming up with the slogan "greener" because instead of 100% CO2, if you use a Ar/ CO2 mix you just reduced your amount of CO2/greenhouse gas emmisions, but still I feel it's BS.  Just my thoughts.

Did anyone notice the article in this months Welding Journal? about how the house/senate is considering coming up with official terms for such as eco-friendly, natural, sustainable and such,  Right now anyone can use them becasue there isn't a standard to define them.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-27-2009 18:24
I think most folks see the term "green" as one that encompases a sensitivity to environmental conserns, rather than a focus strictly on carbon.

"Green" solutions like inverter power supplies can make sense in many situations.

also  the removal of halogenated solvents (Tri-Chlor. etc.) was a 'green' step in manufacturing/welding.

Facilities planning and upgrades can have an effect on the 'greenness' of an operation... Upgrades in HVAC systems that promote return of warm air rather than pouring it out and replacing it can be a huge savings in power.  For facilities with large fume extraction requirements, this would be a notable green function.

Welded manufactured componants are often painted... powder coat technology, electrostatic applications and new technology paint guns (ask any Californians about the penalty if OSHA find an old style Binks) reduce atmospheric contaminants that improve both the environment overall and worker safety specifically.

Hex Chrome regulations might also be put under the  'Green' umbrella..  or any other regulation that welders must comply with for personal/environmental safety.  Captured grinding exhausts etc.
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 08-31-2009 02:54
Haven't looked yet but bet John Deere already has some green rods lol.  Really would have thought green welding was a "greenhorn" starting out or having to wear a ugly puke green hood?  At fire dept rookies had to wear green helmets for a year dang those were some ugly helmets too. 
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 08-28-2009 12:20
This is already an issue here in the states, where often a project will have to conform to some sort of carbon footprint in order to meet new guidelines or simple owner expectations (nobody wants to be labeled now as being behind the curve on green).  And this will get to be a bigger deal in the future.  This will evolve to include things such as:
- a green design (e.g. for buildings, energy efficiency, etc)
- a defined minimum percentage of scrap in the steel
- ensuring all packaging is recyclable and gets recycled
- minimizing transportation distances (e.g. preference would be given to a steel mill, fabricator, supplier, etc that is more closely located to the worksite - less distance traveled equals less fuel consumed)
- a ban or at least a limit on the number of engine driven welding power sources
- some sort of process to ensure welding fumes are collected
- etc, etc
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