If schools got a perctage of future income

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-31-2009 04:54 Edited 08-31-2009 14:37

Hi LongArc!

DO YOU REALLY WANT ME TO ANSWER THAT???

I ask this question because either way, it sounds like you wouldn't agree with my explanation anyway... So, instead of bursting your bubble with my answer, I'll defer to someone else who might just be a bit less, well - let's just say unapologetic to your notion!!! On second thought, I think I will burst your bubble because it needs to be burst, and you need to see the reality of gainful experience! ;)

I mean, what if an instructor has a class of students that for the most part does not go out there, and really try their best to work themselves up through the ranks by starting out as helpers earning low pay at first, (Will the instructors have to suffer because the students couldn't find work straight out of school as top earners??? I think NOT!!!) and then paying their dues along the way by gaining experience and knowledge that cannot be taught at school to eventually earn a decent wage... And instead, they are in some sort of unrealistic rush to make top pay without the necessary skills development, and practical experience that cannot be accomplished in such a short amount of time in a school setting as well as in any schools course scheduled time allotments.

Would the instructors deserve to be penalized by not being paid because their students can only find work at low wages, and the majority are only going to work if they are offered top wages which realistically speaking, is next to impossible especially nowadays??? That's like me telling you that you cannot get paid until I think you are at the level to deposit welds satisfactory enough to meet my own standard regardless of what everyone else seems to accept!!! Do you think that's an acceptable position to agree with??? Yeah, I didn't think so! ;) Experience and wisdom is not something that can be taught nor is it someone's birthright. ;)

In other words, you cannot teach YEARS of practical hands on experience to any and every student, because this type experience is gained over a much longer period of time which cannot be compressed into a course curriculum in such a manner that would cover every type of situation or circumstance which can only be understood, and gained over a period of years!!! There is an occasional student who has an extremely high level of manual dexterity to weld as good, or better than some experienced welders and even their own instructors!!!

As an instructor, I pass on as much of my own personal experiences sort of let's say actually working on a high rise, a power plant or a nuclear submarine because all of my experiences in the situations I just named cannot be condensed and compressed into a course where the outcome will result in the students achieving equivalent experiences as the ones that took many YEARS, and not 18 to 20 months for myself or anyone else who teaches to accumulate, acquire and accomplish!!! ;)

However, they simply do not have anywhere near the experience, and wisdom that has been earned over the years by those experienced welders or their own instructors!!! ;) This cannot be compressed into even a two year college level course no matter what anybody else may say otherwise so, forget about expecting this to be the case with any type of course that is shorter in time allotment necessary in order to complete!

You need to understand that when you graduate, it is only the beginning of your preparation to eventually being able to earn top pay, and that will only happen if you put as much effort into it in order to get some sense of validity out of it, and not by expecting to be paid top dollar without being able to bring into a position the years of experience required for someone who decides to hire you expects!!!

If you do not have that type of experience which companies are looking for as you enter the job market, and it is by any stretch of anybody's imagination, impossible to prepare as well as teach ALL of the necessary experience these companies are looking for, then how can anyone as an instructor of any type of subject besides welding ever expect to see one dime of pay if the education system was set up in the manner you prescribe???

Look, the only thing that an instructor is responsible for is to prepare their student enough, through effective competency based teaching methods as well as some form of validation through practical, and knowledge of fundamentals testing in order for the student to become ready, willing and capable to enter the job market as an entry level welding/fabrication apprentice - PERIOD!!!

So at the risk of already getting you any more riled up by my response (Remember I did warn you ahead of time ;) ) than I already have, I'll just leave you with this... Don't expect anything!!! You only achieve whatever effort you put into something and nothing more!!! So, put in more effort and eventually you'll get out of it whatever it was that you put into it - PERIOD!!! ;) Well that's my answer! like it or not, because I'm not about to start "sugar coating" what is the only way I know how to explain the way the current system works.

Respectfully,
Henry

By cwi49cwe (*)

Date 09-07-2009 02:29

THANK YOU ssbn727 for your comments, I was to upset about this question to answer it as mild mannered as you did, let just add a few more comments to help this person see the light ,,,,,,,,,, I served my welding apprinticeship back in 1973, ( 4 full years ), I taught Adjunct for 15 years at Indiana Vocational Tecnical College ( South Bend Campus ) and never stopped studying ever since, ( degreed in Metallurgy )........... it is apparant that education is being confused with learning a trade ,,,,,,,, education is what makes learning a trade easier and hopefully faster than with out. We all learn at different speeds and in different manors. An education takes place in a learning institution, a trade takes place ON THE JOB, you don't learn a trade in school, that's the big misunderstanding. SKILL TAKES TIME, some more than others, you can't teach the skill portion of skilled-trades. I've told hundreds of my students "I'll teach you ABOUT welding and show you how, what you do with that information is up to you". The biggest problem I see is very few companies know any thing about welding so howw can they promote the skilled trade of welding and I'm sad to say, at these state run trade schools, the level of the welding professional that call himself " welding instructor " is rapidly declining, they are getting younger and younger. Us old farts are on the out side looking in, we can't even donate our time, I believe it's because someone might feel " uncomfortable". I was very fortunate, I ( for the most part ) had great instructors..... it's a shame these schools don't value SKILL and EXPERIENCE ....

By BryonLewis (****)

Date 09-07-2009 06:10

Bravo, Henry. It was a "different" question. I never really thought of that model of tuition reimbursment. But it would be a cluster **** from everybody's perspective. With wages dropping like flies, at least in the Kansas City area, and the price of everything on the rise, it would be a nightmare from every party involved. I've seen some welding schools charge $10K or more for a welding diploma.

Lets see, a guy starting off making $12/hr. That's $480/week gross. At 1% payback, for example, that would be $249 a year. If you had 30 graduates every year that would be $7470 reimbursed to the school the first year after graduation. Damn, that wouldn't even pay instructor salary, let alone any power bills, consumbles, etc. Not too mention all the paperwork and monitoring of former student incomes.

Its would be a ridiculous endevour.

Thanks for bursting the bubble.

By Arctic 510 (**)

Date 08-31-2009 20:50 Edited 08-31-2009 20:52

My reply would be that in a free-market economy, goods and services are exchanged freely based on a supply-and-demand basis (Obviously). The services rendered from a school are education, and after that is finished, it is up to a person to do with that as he/she can. Some people squander the education, others excel far beyond what their education would seem to enable them to. I took a TIG class once that wasn't worth squat. I suceeded in my career in spite of that. Should my lazy, disinterested teacher get my money now? I have had other teachers who were excellent, but when I have yet to apply what they taught me. Should they suffer? I think you would have a massive influx of people who would go to school for free, but the school's return on investment would be dismal once those students got into the marketplace and were unable to find "suitable" employment. Demand for millions of college grads is just not there, and soon we would all have to have a bachelor's to work as a Wal-Mart greeter. (I'm exaggerating here-I think-, please humor me!)

If your idea was the most profitable business model (or even a reasonable business model), I think it would be in use now. I suppose that is what you have, to a limited extent, in some cases, (treading lightly here) with some unions (Apprenticeships=Dues).

I think your proposal flies in the face of true market-based principles. It sounds nice, but I don't think it is feasable. Should such a program be adopted, I believe that school (in a free society) would soon be short of teachers (meaning lower quality instruction) and eventually students. Unless, of course, you are an advocate of "socialization" or "collectivization" of all education. Then my free-market statements would mean nothing to you...:-)

This country still does have a more-or-less free market, capitalist economy. The beauty of that is, if you think your business model will work, go for it! Start up your school, you're still free to do so!

By BryonLewis (****)

Date 09-07-2009 06:24

Since Socialization is my forte. I'll add to this if you don't mind. :-)

If you can find a public institution of learning with a welding program, which there are many, then you have a Socialized education. The welding school I went to in Kansas cost me something like $3,000 for a 9 month course. The out of state tuition was something like $10,000 or somewhere close to that. We had 4 or 5 full-time, post-secondary students and maybe 8 half day high school kids in the class. That only about $15,000 for post-secondary tuition. The instructor got his Ed. Spec. cert and told me that we was making around $55K a year as an instructor, but he'd been at it for nearly 20 years. That's a $40,000 difference between tuition and salary, not to mention supplies like rod, maintenance on the machines and all the other overhead associated with the program.

Isn't Socialism grand. :-)

By Arctic 510 (**)

Date 09-08-2009 17:06

The real question in your example is where that extra 40k+ is coming from. It is coming mostly from the pockets of those who have nothing to do with that education, in taxes. Isn't socialism grand...

We're not quite to complete socialization of education, meaning where there is no other option aside from a state (meaning citizens' taxes) funded one. As long as there is an option to get an education outside of the government funded apparatus, we are not quite there, IMO. Once that private competition goes away, then we have truly socialized education. For now, I think we have heavily subsidized education, not socialized education.

By Pipeslayer (**)

Date 09-17-2009 20:16 Edited 09-17-2009 20:18

Spoken like someone that has never trained anyone. The fact is that you need the money of those who fail to help sustain a program to be around to help those who can succeed. There is no guarentee to teach someone to weld, some can and some cant. The system can be improved but I dont think that is the answer.