Fresh Ideas Needed

Date 09-05-2009 20:36

Hey, Carl, welcome to the fun-filled world of QA! I don't really have any specific ideas for you to try, but I recommend a stroll through this website:

http://www.asq.org

I can't remember if you can browse the forums there as a non-member, but it might be worthwhile to check it out. Good luck, keep us posted.:)

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-06-2009 01:13

Hey Curt,
I have been in QA for awhile, nothing new there, But its been many years since I worked Structural. trying to keep track of the fast turnaround is a little challenging.
You need a membership for the forums at ASQ and I'm not sure it is for me right now, Its hard enough to find time for this one lately. Thanks for the link though, I will save it and keep it in memory as I may be able to check it out in the future. Thanks Again, Carl

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 09-07-2009 20:59

I worked in an AISC shop.
We had a paper system, so all we did was attach a shop sketch to a QC/Fabrication routing card with Hold points all noted. (it was a sign and pass on record).
This remained with the product in an in process file.
As far as traceability we would build bridge bearings, so every component had a Location ( I assume that this would be true in your case) so to track the Shop/QC router to the product would work like this. Each would have a unique router.
P-1 G-2 SP
P-1 G-2 mas
P-1 G-2 PT
P-1 G-2 PN
That would be :
Pier 1 Girder 2 Sole plate
Pier 1 Girder 2 Masonry plate
Pier 1 Girder 2 Pot
Pier 1 Girder 2 Piston
Every thing is stamped and traceable to the bill of material, I would record all heats next to the part it represents.
P-1 G-2 SP    HT# 3245
P-1 G-2 mas    HT# w1252
P-1 G-2 PT    HT# 4420
P-1 G-2 PN    HT# 1278
The information is verified buy comparing the purchase order (must Identify location) and all certs,with the bill of Material.
From there The final Certification Package would vary from state to state, but it worked and was simple to execute.

MDK

By ziggy

Date 09-08-2009 01:16

Carl
Congrats on your new position!

Do you know what particular AISC certification your shop is going for? AISC offers multiple certifications as well as endorsements to the certifications. For instance:

Steel Building (not the same as Metal Buildings);
Steel Bridges (Major and Simple)
Sophisticated Paint Endorsement
Fracture Critical Endorsement
Steel Erection (Certified and Advanced Certified)

Once you know which direction your shop is moving, I would suggest you check out AISC's website (www.aisc.org) as well as QMC's website (www.qmconline.com) QMC is owned by AISC. QMC performs the auditing for AISC.

The audit process has four steps:
1. Administrative audit;
2. Documentation audit;
3. Onsite audit;
4. Recommendation
Steps 1, 2 and 4 are all performed at QMC's offices in Chicago IL. Step 3 is performed by a contract auditor for QMC.

There is a wealth of information on either website and you do not have to be a member of AISC to access the information. There are several sample procedures that you can download and review. Some fabricators have used the sample procedures as a baseline to create their own written procedures.

Hopefully this helps a little.

ziggy

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-08-2009 03:07

Thanks Ziggy, we are going for Complex building. I believe we are in the documentation phase now. I will check out QMC's website. Thanks again!

By ziggy

Date 09-08-2009 23:33

Carl-
Just an FYI...what some refer to as "Complex" building is actually now called "Steel Building Standard."

Prior to 2002 AISC offered two categories for steel building fabricators: Complex and Conventional. These were a checklist audit.

In 2002 AISC introduced a new Steel Building Standard and gradually began auditing to it. During 2005 all steel building fabricators had to certify to AISC's Steel Building Standard. If you are familiar with ISO, the Steel Building Standard is modeled after ISO 9001:1994 but with only 19 elements. The Building Standard was updated in 2006.

Some engineers still spec AISC "Complex" building requirements, but that category is long gone.

One of the better features of the building standard is the focus on improving the process, reducing costs and exposure and increasing profits and production. It can be a challenge to change focus from product to process but once a shop gets the hang of it, they will see improvement to their bottom line...and QA/QC will present potential savings to management rather than just tabulating nonconformance costs...its much more fun to present savings to managment!

Enjoy the ride!

ziggy

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-09-2009 02:14

Thanks for the heads up, You can tell I haven't been around AISC in many years. when I was Hired I do believe they mentioned Complex Building. Could be just the term they used.
Regards, Carl

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 09-09-2009 16:57

A couple of things (maybe a few) come to mind:

Keep it simple, Simple. Keep it simple, Simple. Keep it simple, Simple.

First, take a good look at what is already in place. Chances are that the current system is pretty good but just needs some tweaking. Take a good look at what it will take to get QC reporting where you want it to be, then look at the simplest, most minimal, steps you need to get there.

As far as paperwork goes, I like to use 11 x 17 drawings as a QC set to record on. I use them to tick mark dims I check, number of pieces, and I mark up errors - as well recheck- on the sheets. Check off lists are great for showing everythng is good, but they don't work well for documenting what was wrong and how it was repaired. Mark-ups have answered many questions when the call is received that something didn't fit - I either checked that or I didn't, someone bought off or didn't.
The main reason for this is long term corrective action. All problems are fixed, in some way or another, as you go. If you have no records to show your weak areas, it is hard to make improvements. How many pieces had holes plugged? How many clips were fit wrong? How many drawings had no RD's and math errors were made on the shop floor because of it? How many pieces went through unchecked? (c'mon - there WILL be some)

Marked up drawings don't work well for showing what has been OK'd or overall status. So I mark up my drawings as needed and I also use the check-off form I get with the work package.
So there is a happy medium in there somewhere, to fit your system.

Probably the best approach you can take is to download the AISC Building Standard and read through it to see what the minimum requirements are. Then look at what you are currently doing and "build from there".

I know this is all very generic but what you do has to work for you and what I do has to work for me.

By eekpod

Date 09-09-2009 18:24

I am in the process of switching over to a Fabtrol generated report (thats what Fabtrol calls them) so it will list every piece mark. I print it out and keep it ina 3 ring binder for each job.
We used to do the same thing just by hand, and if I missed a piece I would never know it unless I went back and audited it to catch it.

You'll need to get familier with your companys current procedures, becasue thats what the audit does is basically compare what you actaully do vs what you say you do in the written procedures.

gotta run
Chris

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-10-2009 02:47

I have been doing it the same way so far, writing on the 11 X 17 drawings and also filling out Fabtrols quality log. I do tick mark the drawings too as I check a part, and keep track of mistakes, changes etc on them also.

My problem now is stuff getting by without getting checked, so I am going to implement a Red,Yellow, Green tagging system. Red is reject, Yellow is like a caution, read the tag and see what is the next step(welding or welding and back to a fitter, etc.). and Green will be final accept and list what coatings if any the part gets.

When the part gets loaded, the green tag comes off as a way of keeping track of what was loaded. Hopefully this will help the shop keep from pulling stuff outside that doesn't have a green tag and parts getting welded that don't have a yellow tag.

Regards, Carl

By James Corbin (**)

Date 09-10-2009 17:06

Carl congrats
The short version............
If in fact the company is using FabTrol then all of the receiving can be put into fabtrol as a PO number then acknowledged the MTR number for each stock item. (then the total MTR list under that PO number is scanned into pdf and named that PO number and filed then the POs MTRs can be filed into the job) All material is then pulled from stock (as far as fabtrol is concerned) and listed on a cut sheet, when the material is cut from the list it's marked off and turned back into the office and acknowledged into fabtrol for yes it was used how much was left to stock or what it was replaced with via a PO number and description. (Bolts also can be checked into fabtrol the same way)

For fabrication fabtrol will generate a shop tracking sheet with a listing per part (recommended) or per group of same part (mark) number, columns on this sheet can be altered to include (using a employee number assigned by fabtrol) Who..final inspection, who fitted, who welded, who checked etc. When done this sheet also is returned (by QC or Foremen) and entered into fabtrol. If only 6 of 9 part (mark) numbers were made fabtrol will be able to let you know 3 have not be fabricated and who made the 6, who checked the 6 and when.

A load sheet also can be created by fabtrol and it will include the approximate weight of the load and even a loading order for erection use right oof the trailer or ground as stacked. When loaded this checked off sheet can be acknowledge into fabtrol keeping a record of the load number and what was on it for later verification.

As for AISC get on the Quality Management Company (AISCs Auditing division) has LOTS of helpful info on getting audited and what they will be looking for. Fabtrol when utilized fully will be a great asset to your audit as far as operations is concerned. As for the other QC records that is another story. Check the companies QA Manual (if they have one) against what AISC is looking for. If it does not contain procedures to cover something you must add it in. (CYA)

Contact Fabtrol, they can let you know which packages your company bought and how each package can help you track your operation.

Hope this helps you

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-11-2009 02:49

I haven't got my Computer set up yet, but what your talking about it sounds like we have all that, I get a quality Control Traveller(which tells who and when fit/welded each item and when the job or phase ships I get a load status report, which I have to Reconcile by hand to see if everything got shipped. That seems a little time consuming to go page by page thru the drawings to make sure everything got put into fabtrol but that is also part of my job.
The girls in the office enter all the info into fabtrol, so I don't have much control over that. I do plan on getting them to put quantities of bolts and plate washers and such as multiple items instead of 1 line for 1 bolt. I get 20 pages of a listing for 500 bolts, using 1 line for 1 bolt. I like that for beams, columns and fabricated items, but not for plain bolts and plate washers and such.
There is talk about getting bar codes and scanners that would enter info into fabtrol, Im going to push for it, seems that would eliminate alot of paperwork.

Whenever your ready, I'm ready for the long Version. :) :) :)

It looks like we have it handled like most other places, I'm beginning to realize why they replaced thier QA manager with me, total disorganization to say the least.
Thanks for the input, I will be looking more into QMC in the near future.
Regards, Carl

By eekpod

Date 09-11-2009 10:32

Make sure your WPS's are in order.
Mine weren't 100% when I took over, the outside inspectors and auditors were "nice" enough to point out any issues that needed to be addressed. But by that time I felt like crap but thats how it goes sometimes.

I would love to switch over to a bar-code system, but the money involved in this economy wouldn't make that an option right now. Besides the time and effort to figure it out and get it up and running. If you do go that way I'd be curious about cost and how it works. It would make things easier.

By James Corbin (**)

Date 09-11-2009 17:24

Have they sent in a QA Manual for review yet?
Do you have an audit date set?
Are you the named “AISC” company representative?
Are you "in charge" to get the company certified?

From the time you just get started to go AISC to your audit I would give it 6 to 8 months depending on shop size and the amount of employee training needed to comply (that includes office personal). Calibration logs for welding machines & tools used in final inspection will be checked, I use a calibration station in the shop all QC, prefab, and fab employees must check their tools each month and I check the station with NIST calibrated tools at the beginning of each month then keep the log sheet on file. (tools to check the station do not get used daily in the shop and are the official NIST checked/calibrated set) This station also includes shop procedures to refer to and all welding procedures are ready for shop reference. Make a new procedure ... add it to the binder, LARGE shops may require several Calibration Stations.
Small things like open bolt kegs sitting around is a no no, use of a load cell and documented training for the cell is required for at least one shop employee.
Log all training that is done, they like that. (shop training on how to use the system you come up with along with weldor self inspection training if you go that "lean" route)
Log inspections (done on your traveler)
Log all calibrations done (welders, measuring tools, squares, levels etc. ........ weldor = person..... welder = machine)
Log all shop machine maintenance done along with a monthly maintenance list
List all outside connections i.e. outside NDT & inspection companies, machine maintenance or parts vendors etc. along with names and contact info.
Logs of weldor certs/6 months (I use xls but programs are available)
Logs of painting/primer (day, time, surface temp. ambient temp, brand, lot #, painter, mil thickness, humidity etc.)
Meeting attendance logs (this may included office management meetings and quality committee meetings or other meetings)
Non Conformance logs (I have all QC and foremen log all problems that cost extra time including NCs .. that could include drawing problems that needed fixed. who did it, who found it. It may take an extra minute now to log but it can show problem trends)
Corrective Action reports
Bolt lot testing logs
Bolt installation logs (may or may not be needed)
etc....etc....etc....

I have pages and pages of departmental specific questions on pdf, most of which you can get from QMC .. you can have mine off line.
I'm in San Antonio now but I'll be back in Denver Sunday to dig it up
So the big question ... How Much Time Do You Have before your audit???? 6 days... 6 weeks... 6 months......

By jrw159

Date 09-11-2009 18:02

Here is the one I put together for the last company I worked for. :-)

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=105238;hl=45

jrw159

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-12-2009 03:19

Alot of good info, The President is the company rep, I am in charge of getting the QC dept. suitable for an audit. The manual has been reviewed and a date has not been set yet.
I would be interested in your pdf's, Lately I been Super busy with other matters and without a computer at work yet, its hard to find time for anything.(not to mention the honeydo lists when I'm at home) :)
I don't believe we are anywhere near audit ready from what I've seen so far. I think(not for sure) that they have been going back and forth with the qaulity manual for over a year now, and supposed to be getting ready for an audit.
In the 2 weeks I been there, I can see they want to do the right thing, but they may not know exactly how to.
I want to thank EVERYONE who has responded, I've gotten alot of good stuff, and looks like I have a big job ahead of me!
thanks, Carl

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-13-2009 04:09

I found alot of stuff on QMC website, If you have more than whats on there, I could use it, Otherwise I can find it there, Thanks alot for your help!!!
Carl

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 09-11-2009 16:29

Wow, have you been peeking in the windows at our shop?

That's another method that we use as well - only in our case we use surveyor's ribbon. Blue means ready for check, Orange means OK to weld. Red means rework, Green means good-to-go.
No one may put on green except QC and no one may remove red except QC. This allows foremen or lead people to make dimensional checks when QC is overwhelmed (not their own work) but QC has the final check.
Red tags are HOLD tags; not exactly the same as red ribbons but almost.

When the ribbons are used, you can determine the status of the piece from acroos the shop. Colored tags are good but we seem to find surveyor's tape more easily.

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-12-2009 03:40

I like the ribbon Idea, But I also like to leave a little info on the tag, Like what kind of finish and coating on the green tags. and the yellow lists the fitter and who bought it off, along with any other info, especially if it needs to go back to a fitter for more work after initial welding. any red tags list whats wrong with a part and parts that have been repaired get the tag ripped about half way through to let me know they been fixed. and the only one to remove a red tag is the one that put it on.
as far as ready for check, we have orange angle clips that they put on a part or group of parts that have QA stenciled in black on them to let QA know they are ready.(in a dark shop, blue seems like it would be hard to see across the shop)
With keeping logs on fitting and checking, the ribbons could work for ready to weld, I'll have to ponder that idea.
Thanks , Carl

By James Corbin (**)

Date 09-18-2009 14:41 Edited 09-18-2009 14:49

Here is the list in pdf, use it along with the AISC Audit policies to clarify each question. Answer each question not by what you know but what you see...find...have it on paper...put it in a binder, have it on a spread sheet, whatever, just make sure when asked you don't have to hunt, its right there. Put a copy of your CWI certificate on the wall and any other other awards, certificates you may have. Make an impression up front that you know what your doing. If asked a question of something you don't do but some other manager does do TELL them where to go to get the answer AND also tell them the answer, it will show YOU know the company system...cross training etc. READ the company QA Manual carefully, do you see anything being done or not being done to the manual? LET your boss know.
I've heard others say leave something minor and let the auditor find it......I say NO... you find it NOW you fix it NOW let the auditor find something if he/she can. ALSO learn the art of the Texas shuffle. Show the auditor something they will be asking of you even though they have not asked it yet, moving their questions out of order eats their time some thing they don't have much of.

Hope this helps

Attachment: AuditPoliciesrevision1-09.pdf (123k)

Attachment: AuditChecklisttemplate.pdf (70k)

By ctacker (****)

Date 09-20-2009 00:13

Thank you James, I'd say we're 95% there, Still need some minor work to get Certified.
I Appreciate all you help!