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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Can you see a problem with this pic?
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-15-2009 15:32
Just throwing this out here to see if the picture conveys the problem so I can see if I want to use this in my fabrication/welding training here at work.

Some particulars about this picture:
Fitup and then tacked with SMAW E7028
Welded out with 3/32" E70T-1 FCAW 100%CO2
1/4" fillet @ 3 sides
Welder stencil "E"



another look at a different angle

Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 09-15-2009 15:55
no pic
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-15-2009 16:01
Let me see if I can attach these from my desktop....work filters sometimes block photobucket.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-15-2009 16:11
well, they are supersize...but you can certainly see them.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 09-15-2009 16:27
No. There is no problem - the pics are just fine.

The welds on the other hand: arc strike (very obvious); the crater near it looks suspect - possibly underfilled and maybe some cracks; looks like some LOF at the left side weld start (as you face the beam end and near the spatter).  I'm not sure if that is overlap on the long weld.  Melted edge along the clip short side weld.

That's what I saw moments ago - gotta go back to see if there is anything else.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-15-2009 16:37 Edited 09-15-2009 16:42
Good eyes there Chet!

The crater is full section, pic may not be at the best angle to see that(and I didn't have a gage on the weld while taking the pic).
Speaking of the crater(stop), I like to see the craters(stop) back there along that back side of the clip, I think this is good practice, rather than starting on one side and welding continuously around and stopping at the cut end of the beam.

The spatter ball was from the SMAW tack and so was the arc strike.

What I thought of using this pic for is addressing the arc strike that is front and center during our training sessions with the newer guys.

positives:
weld is sized per the drawing
weld crater(stop) is at the rear of the clip anglehelps eliminate the notch potential.
weld is fairly uniform
weld starts are 1/4" away from the beam cut edge(same as the weld size). Again, less chance of creating a notch potential

biggest negative:
arc strike

You guys see any further comments that I can use during training?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-15-2009 18:20
John

You boot needs polish..

Sparks bounce off polished boots.. Extends the life of the upper by about half..  Keeps the stitching from being consumed too.

:)
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-15-2009 18:45
LOL....Lawrence these boots are worn well past their usefulness. I usually keep them polished up, but these are several years old and the shine isn't worth the effort any longer...LOL
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-15-2009 21:44
It's hard to tell for sure from the picture, but it looks like the bead is on the verge of excess reinforcement / stress riser / heat input issues due to too slow of a travel speed.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-15-2009 23:18
I saw the same thing Tim...

I bet it's pretty hard to get a 1/4" lap weld with 3/32" FCAW electrode. 

That joint must have been welded at the very low end of the paramater range.

E70T-1 FCAW electrodes are designed to get a flat profile and better wetting at the toes, but it takes some current to do it.. I think .045 or even 1/16 electrodes would have been a better selection for the joint in this discussion.

John can also use this to train his process engineers  :)
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 09-16-2009 00:45
Excess reinforcement? are you talking about a convex weld bead? thats what I see, but its hard to tell with a pic.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-16-2009 01:04
I see that I shoulda put a fillet weld gage in the pic...no excessive reinforcement. It was possible to hold the camera with one hand and gage in the other..just wasn't thinking at the time...more interested in capturing the arc strike. a little over 400a with 29.5v, 1" ESO.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 09-16-2009 01:32
whats excessive reinforcment on a fillet weld?
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 09-16-2009 13:15
slang for excessive convexity.  Same as "lumpy throat", "potbelly", "humpback", "cold formed".

Oops - sorry 'bout that.  I got confused with my wife's terms of endearment to describe me.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 09-17-2009 04:19
Thats what I thought, I've never heard it as excessive reinforcment, excessive reinforcment should be an oversized fillet weld :)
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 09-16-2009 01:36
Whats up with the color? Shadow?light?
Parent - - By crazycajun (**) Date 09-16-2009 03:13 Edited 09-17-2009 02:59
arc strike is the biggest thing I see,(must have been lighting a cigerette) the tie in of the welds could be a little tighter, the spatter can be cleaned easily, so I would have to say worry about the arc strike, final answer.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 09-16-2009 05:52
The 2nd photo from top looks having distortion.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 09-16-2009 10:28
Let's look at the positive side as well.  The base material is nice and clean, no excessive rust or contaminants.  Can't see if there were gaps in the fit up, but I'm sure there weren't on an angle clip.
Chris
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-16-2009 11:06
Distortion is from the round camera lens.
Parent - - By bert lee (**) Date 09-16-2009 14:47
jwright650,

you have good shots but the distortion you said is from round camera lens, if the readers are not expert in photo shooting, they would not know it.
therefore, you can't rely on camera shots as reliable source of evidence? will you suggest that?

bert
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-17-2009 18:43 Edited 09-17-2009 18:46
Hello John;

I saw the arc strike, the spatter (workmanship issue, but acceptable to D1.1), the welds look like there is some convexity, but there is no way to assess the convexity from the photograph. The shadow along the toe is the only indication of convexity. I prefer to see the welds wrap the corner of the angle fitting without starting/stopping at the corners.

I like the cleanliness of the steel and the hold backs of the weld from the cut end of the wide flange.

As for size, I can’t tell if it meets print without seeing the print and knowing what the thickness of the angle fitting (clip angle) is.

A little “edge-melt” isn’t the end of the world as long as the inspector can establish the edge of the fitting so the weld size can be verified.

It isn’t unusual to see some evidence of incomplete fusion at the start of the weld. The tie in between the two welds resulted in a crater, but as long as there isn’t any overlap or underfill, it looks fine.

It is difficult to “see” what is really happening in a photograph that was taken with the built in flash because it tends to wash-out the photo. The shadows seen with the unaided eye are not seen in the “flash” photo. In my opinion it is a good photograph for use as a training aid. The arc strike is the discontinuity that is seen first because it is centered in the photograph. Everything else is peripheral and not germane to the presence of the central object, i.e., the arc strike.

I find that it is best to concentrate on one “defect” in each photograph and to make sure the detail you want to show is prominent. A question like “What’s wrong with this picture?” is a loaded question because the photograph doesn’t provide depth; it is a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional object. That is why I try to limit using a photograph (on examinations) to identify the proper term used to describe a specific discontinuity.

The bottom line is that I like your approach to the problem.

By the way, I was hoping to hear of your experiences with the fillet break test in the thread on socket welds. Now that I've broached the subject, what are your experiences with the pass fail rate of the fillet break test?

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-17-2009 19:21
Al, as always, I appreciate your comments. It helps me confirm in my own mind that I'm seeing things objectively like an inspector should. FWIW the clips are 5/16" material on a W30x90 wideflange.

As to fillet welds break tests. Those are usually the first destructive tests my new hires see(SMAW and FCAW). I get a sense from witnessing those whether or not to spend or waste time with welding up the 1" (2G) set of plates. I figure if they struggle with a fillet weld break test or a crosscut/macro etch, then why waste my time preparing a weld test coupon to throw in the scrap barrel. If I see decent results we move on.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-17-2009 20:02
Now to pick your brain for additional information. In general, what is the pass fail rate for the fillet break test?

Are you requiring the welders to make the 5/16 inch fillet weld as a single pass fillet?

What is the primary reason for failing the test, i.e., undercut, overlap, incomplete fusion to the root, etc.?

Do you know if they have passed a grooved butt joint test prior to taking the fillet break test? If you are testing new hires with previous qualification from another employer, what is the pass fail rate for that group?

Once they pass the fillet break test, what is the pass / fail rate for the grooved butt joint?

I am trying to find out if my experience with fillet welds is unique or common. I'm sure you have administered many performance tests of both type, so your input will be very informative.

Thanks - Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-18-2009 00:02
Ok, let me see if can answer some of this.....

>In general, what is the pass fail rate for the fillet break test?


I'm gonna guess at 85-90% pass rate

>Are you requiring the welders to make the 5/16 inch fillet weld as a single pass fillet?


yes(mostly FCAW)...I can't remember when we did a SMAW last...but that would have been with a large dia E7028

>What is the primary reason for failing the test, i.e., undercut, overlap, incomplete fusion to the root, etc.?


incomplete fusion at the root due to incorrect gun/travel angle, and then undercut/overlap coming in second for the less experienced, again mainly due to gun/travel angle(for some reason they like to use a push angle and it's hard to break them of that)

>Do you know if they have passed a grooved butt joint test prior to taking the fillet break test?


many of the newer welders here lately are promoted from within, so I've had a chance to work with most of them, but the others have been previously tested with other companies.

>If you are testing new hires with previous qualification from another employer, what is the pass fail rate for that group?


I'm gonna say that the previously tested fail more often than the ones that I've had a chance to bring up and worked with(ratio?..hmm maybe a 1/10 fail)...that might not be fair to put them up against the one's I've had a chance to train.

>Once they pass the fillet break test, what is the pass / fail rate for the grooved butt joint?


Pretty good pass rate...capping it off seems to give them the most trouble on the groove test...few bust out at the root, but more often than not the cap causes the most trouble. E70T-1 is pretty fluid.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-18-2009 03:01
One last question; what is the diameter of the FCAW electrode.

Thanks for the information.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-18-2009 04:46
Hi Al!
In John's first post, he mentioned a 3/32" diameter E 70T-1... And in a later post John mentions having the power source/wire feeder set @ a little over 400 Amps with 29.5 Volts, 1" Electrode Stick Out.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-18-2009 04:55
Right you are Henry. That would account for the disparity between the pass/fail rates he has experienced and those I have with the small diameter FCAW and GMAW electrodes.

Good catch. Thank you.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-18-2009 05:19
You're always "Weldcome" Al! :) :) :)

It sure makes sense to me with respect to the differences in diameter wire being used as well as the V/A settings also. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-26-2009 22:33
well call me dumb if you feel the need to but it doesnt look like the beade grabbed the metal in some spots and the obvious arc strike and drag not a very good wire weld in my book but everybody is different
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Can you see a problem with this pic?

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