The visual acceptance criteria of ASME Section IX is pitifully scant. For that reason I ask the contractor what construction code is being used, i.e., B31.1, B31.3 Normal, Section VIII, etc. I list the construction code under the heading of visual acceptance criteria and that is the visual criteria I apply to the test coupon. If it doesn’t pass visual examination it doesn’t go any further.
The conditions of the test are discussed with the client beforehand. Most clients are not interested in putting half-skilled welders to work. The type of test, material, groove detail, use of grinders, WPS, visual acceptance criteria, time limitations, etc. are discussed and agreed to before any testing is scheduled. There is a method to the madness. There is no code requirement to use a third party, but there are benefits to doing so. First, it reduces the appearance of employer bias. Second, there is better recognition of the test’s validity if the testing agency has an established reputation. Third, if the welder fails, it is the hard-ass, uncompromising inspector that failed the welder, not the employer.
I tell my clients that it is my signature that goes on the bottom of the page. If the welder “passes” and proceeds to produce garbage welds in production, it is my name that is associated with a welders with substandard skills. The terms and conditions of the test are simple; my name, my rules, simple and effective. Everyone knows the rules and requirements because they are put to pen and paper. Each welder reads the WPS and the test rules which include the visual acceptance criteria. They get a fitup check when the coupons are in position, a check or two while they are welding, a visual examination when they proclaim they are finished, and if all is good to that point, off the samples go for cutting and bending.
Best regards – Al
Thank you for your response I appreciate your effort, information, and experience.
Good morning Al,
I agree totally with your statement on the visual acceptance criteria for ASME IX - minimal information.
However, it appears the code committee does not want supervisors / inspectors to use anything but QW-194 when assessing a coupon.
Interpretation IX-83-149
Q If the welder is testing under a code - for example ANSI/ASME B31.1 - is the supervisor conducting the tests supposed to base his visual requirements on the production weld requirements listed in ANSI/ASME B31.1.
A No
Not sure I agree but it seems pretty clear cut,
Regards,
Shane
Hello Shawn;
The codes provide the minimum requirements that have to be met. We can agree on that point.
The contractor can exceed the minimum requirements specified by the code. I believe we can agree on that point as well.
Now let's ask the question, "Does the contractor have to exceed the code requirements?" I believe most of us would once again agree the answer is "No."
Inquiries to the code committees have to be in a form that allows a "yes or no" response. The response has to be black or white, a 1 or a 0 and nothing in between.
The construct of the question is key to the committee's response. The inclusion of the pivotal word "supposed" in the original question (IX-83-149) can only result in a response of "No" from the committee. It would be mandatory to use the visual acceptance criteria of the construction code if the committee’s response was “Yes.” That would be in direct conflict with the minimum requirements listed in Section IX. Section IX would have to be changed to something like; "The visual acceptance criteria of the applicable construction code shall be used when evaluating welder performance test coupons." That would entail a major paradigm shift for the code. The horror!
The committee’s response could easily be something different if the inquiry was worded differently. The question could have been stated as: "Can a contractor working with the B31.1 piping code use the visual acceptance criteria for welds included in B31.1 to evaluate a welder performance test coupon?” The construct changes the nature of the question. A committee response of "Yes" does not make the use the visual acceptance criteria of the construction code mandatory. A “Yes” response would not conflict with the basic premise that the requirements of the code are the minimum requirements that have to be met and it would not prohibit the contractor/employer from exceeding the minimum requirements.
The response to the initial question does not prohibit the practice of applying the visual criteria of the construction code; it simply says that the visual criteria of Section IX are applicable and appropriate.
Best regards – Al
By js55 
Date 09-22-2009 13:02
Edited 09-22-2009 13:04
Shane,
I would venture to guess that the basis for the interpretation is that welders don't test under B31.1. They test under Section IX with a qualification that will be applied to work under the code of construction. And unless the code of construction has additional requirements specifically for qualification then Section IX is the code of reference.
If the visual criteria of a code of construction is to be imposed for qualification it has to come from contract documents.
Having said this there may be some that would agree with your philosophy, but as it stands there is no code justification to support it. The argument against it is that many qualifications are done for companies that work under varying codes of construction. Like mine for example. What a mess it would be if every time I tested a welder I had to impose the visual criteria of multiple codes. And taking the most stringent (keeping in mind that if you take the most stringent you are imposing a requirement ahead of time, so why not do it anyway?) would not necessarily be an answer since if this were actual what would keep them from conflicting? Or worse, and more likely, you would have to have a system in place to verify which codes your welders can work to.
I'm also guessing that this is one of the primary reasons Section IX was begun in the first place.
Al,
If the welders are currently involved in three projects such as B31.3, API 650, ASME VIII which require ASME Sec IX qualification. What visual criteria can be suggested?
I'm afraid the contractor (paymaster) will not agree with TPI to use the most stringent criteria, they also would not want to spend time and money to requalify each welder based on every construction code they are involved.
Regards
Joey
That's the problem. A contractor can qualify the welder to Section IX and then put the welder to work on a project where the welder has no hope of passing visual without spending more time with a grinder than with the "stinger".
My clients have agreed to use the more stringent visual criteria of the construction codes they are using when the time the welder is being tested.
I agree that it isn't a call the TPI can make unilaterally. Then again, it isn't the TPI that is typically tasked with qualifying the welders.
We're all in trouble if it is solely up to the bean counter to make the call on what code to use. That is why QC/QA answers to the president/owner rather than the accounting department.
It is also incumbent upon the owner to understand what is being purchased. The owner has an opportunity to require a higher level of quality control than merely the minimum requirements of the code. As case in point: spatter, there is no criteria for spatter in Section VIII. If the customer has a concern with spatter it has to be addressed in the contract documents, i.e., project specification/purchase order/drawings. Undercut is another discontinuity that may be undesirable to the customer. The word undercut does not appear in ASME Section VIII to the best of my knowledge. My work around for undercut is "material thinning due to the manufacturing process", but don't call it undercut.
If visual criteria is lacking in the applicable code, the customer has little option than to provide the appropriate criteria in the contract documents. If the contractor doing the work finds the criteria lacking in the applicable code section, there is no prohibition from applying a more stringent criteria to the work being performed by their employees. It is something that is done by many companies. Issues such as overlap, undercut, spatter, etc. are often addressed by the contractor's visual acceptance criteria included in the quality control manual or in the annex of the WPS or other work instructions provided to the workforce.
The customer can include whatever requirements he feels is appropriate in the contract documents as long as the code’s minimum requirements are met or exceeded (in a good way). As an example; I have a project that is just starting. We included a requirement for the welder to pass a fillet break test in the presence of the owner’s SCWI/CWI in the project specifications and again on the drawings.
Immediately the contractor insisted it wasn’t required because the welder had already passed a pipe test in the 6G position. The contractor’s position was the code says the welder is qualified for fillets by virtue of passing the groove test. The owner and the engineer insisted that this project required a fillet break test, no exceptions.
I tested the welder today and by the end of the day, even though I allowed him to practice (plate after plate after plate) before the test (to set his current), he could not pass either the horizontal fillet or the vertical fillet break test. The reason, he couldn’t get fusion to the root on either test.
Best regards - Al
Gents, if we cut through all the code dialogue, it comes down to one simple question: will the welder perform in a manner that will benefit production or will he / she cause more reworks than he /she is worth? After clearing the test booth is when the "real" test come, as most of you know, test conditions are often ideal when compared to production works, maybe more so in construction than manufacturing but each environment has it's tough spots.
Codes often dont tell the test supervisor what they can and cannot accept in visual examination, there always has to be some "reasonable" judgment on the part of the supervisor. If stuck in a situation where they have no control over who gets hired and who doesn't, then the production people deserve what they get.
Most pipes and welds will be insulated or painted after welding, you will not be able to see the welds so who cares how they look.
3.2
I know several contractors that follow that same philosophy. There is more than a few that subscribe to the "I can't see it from my house" ethic.
By the way, the welder with twenty years of pipe welding experience, finally passed the fillet break test after two days of coaching and practicing.
His comment was, "I can't believe these fillet welds are kicking my ass! It's embarassing!"
Best regards - Al
I agree....
My personal favorite is the "It will be insulated anyway"
3.2
mine "it wont leak during hydrotest"
"It'll hold shucked corn"
