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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Volts to Amps Conversion
- - By TimGary (****) Date 04-17-2002 15:30
Is there a formula for converting Volts to Amps?
Thanks,
Tim
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 04-17-2002 16:13
None that I know of. Volts and Amps (Amperes) are two different measurements of electricity. A Volt is the unit used when measuring the difference of electrical potential between 2 points in a circuit. An ampere is the unit used when measuring the electron flow in a circuit. An analogy that might help is to think of a pipe in a water system. Voltage is similar to measuring the pressure in the pipe. Amperage is similar to measuring the amount of flow through the pipe.
Possibly you mean something else and aren't sure of the terminology?
Hope this helps,
CHGuilford
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 04-17-2002 16:15
No, they are seperate properties and are not related. What are you trying to figure out?

Marty
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 04-17-2002 16:34
May not be what you are looking for but, Mr. Ohms says

Volts X Resistance = Amps (fill in the blanks)
Parent - - By Kulkarni (*) Date 04-18-2002 09:21
RonG,
I think that should be "Volts=Amperes x Resistance".
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 04-18-2002 14:08
Excuse me for over simplifying. V=IxR is the picture perfect formula, but its still Ohms law, or did I mention that already?

I wonder, can you explain why welders do not get welding current through there body when they come in contact with there electrode?

suffice to say, Voltage is to low and the resistence is to great to allow the current to pass through you. Why does standing in water pose a greater threat than standing on a rubber mat?

Back to the first question. If you know the Min/Max out put of a machine in volts and Amps, any dial or slide bar can be incremented and labled. That only leaves the electrode and Arc length as unknow variable and that also can be determined, if its worth you're time and trouble.
Parent - By dee (***) Date 04-19-2002 06:04
Ron,
I for one enjoy your simplification. Thank you.

I would point out that I was surprised at an eraly age by a Bell Telephone employee who impressed me with how low a voltage was required to cause electrocution. Bear in mind the human body is essentially a sack of salted, conductive fluids... rather highly conductive, and that I can measure conductivity through it (arm-to-arm) with less than 9 volts. I am not talking about tongue-testing a transistor battery, but that too is an example.

I would suggest a welder in contact with their energized electrode does indeed have welding current throughout their body. Fortunately for them none is traveling through them to complete the circuit. I am under the impression power supply manufacturers make an effort to isolate the welding circuit from earth-ground; I may be wrong as this is not an area of any personal expertise, but please do be advised that some 4 decades ago Telco employees were teaching me that electricity less tahn 1/2 the ring voltage, lower than 25 volts, could be fatal. I never put it to the test.

In the interest of safety it's important to say especially to the uninitiated that no equpment manufacturer I know of permits handling of an energized electrode; they warn against it as a threat to life and limb.

That established on behalf of safety, I always tended to resent the cryptic representation of Watts, Amperes, Volts & Ohms (W,I,E & R respectively) as unnecessarily confusing. I am glad you avoided them.

Regards
D
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 04-17-2002 17:08
Thanks guys...
I was just trying to figure out if I could tell the amperage put out by a welding machine without an ampmeter capable of reading DC Amps.
Guess I'll go to plan B...
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 04-18-2002 01:29
Tim,
You seem to be impressively well versed in your area of experience. I am not sure why you need to figure out the amperage... but if you merely need to determine if, or at what dial setting, your power supply might attain a given amperage, and access to bona-fide service equipment is impractical, you can inexpensively devise an expedient at a cost of I guess about ten bucks or so. It will only indicate when a particular amperage is attained, and would have to be somewhat rebuilt after each use, but would be impressively accurate. Let me know if you're interested.
D
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 04-18-2002 12:10
Thanks anyway Dee..
I'm trying to read amperage ranges given from a couple of our older machines without gages, and also trying to calibrate the machines with gages. For this I intend to get the right Ampmeter.
I appreciate the offer though...
Tim
Parent - By Wildturkey (**) Date 04-18-2002 12:58
Tim,
I use a Fluke 336 it is a clamp on that reads AC and DC. It has worked well for me.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 04-18-2002 13:28
D,
I can only imagine what expedient you are talking about. If you don't mind, I'd like to learn more about it.
Thanks,
CHGuilford
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 04-19-2002 04:47
CH

It's basic electricity stuff and I would have looked it up in my "cheater" book to refresh my memory so I could be accurate (and sound smart)... but after about 20 years of disuse I'm not sure where it's been put. Certainly it's nowhere to be found in my head. I wasn't trying to be mystical. I'm just trying to be stand-up and share what I do know, and what I have used in a simulated emergency radio application. Under the circumstance please accept it in the spirit intended; I apologize for lack of specificity.

I presume a 150 amp fuze will permit 149A to pass even to a dead short or arc. The issue to control (or which would cause the plan to fail) would be heat, which would be done by keeping the fuze as far from it as possible; close to the power supply.
Build a fuze of the desired rating. Gang several cheap, smaller fuzes in parallel, or steal one big 250A fuze from a kid's high performance car stereo while his back is turned... easier to build one than find one I think.

By adjusting the number and value of the fuzes, through some basic math, we can essentially build our own fuze to come close to the current we are looking for. As we slowly adjust the amperage or wire feed control higher the fuze will at some point blow and we can note the position of the dial.

All else equal, more strands of conductor build a heavier # wire which will carry more current... I'm a little foggy about computational details, but it's merely a matter of how many strands, or fuzes, we require (I am, as previously stated, unfortunately unprepared for deeper testing in that subject) I am thinking ten 25A fuzes in {series} will limit 250 A. Am I correct? {parallel connection is correct}

You can get fuzes with wire leads attaached- often called "pigtail" fuzes, and merely twist the leads together at each end to gang them, but if you solder leads onto "bare" fuzes you will often ruin the fuze.

3AG "pigtail" fuzes should cost from $0.25 to $1.25 (US$) each at the right retail source here in central NJ. Any style fuze will do, but 3AG is large enough (about 1" long) and made of {clear glass} to be easy to see and use in this application. Local Radio Shack should have something. Discount supply houses sometimes offer non-UL, chineese fuzes at about $2.00 per box of five. {NOTE DANGER GLASS FUZES MAY BURST AND SEND GLASS PARTICLES FLYING}

It so happens that fuzes are something my repair shop keeps a large selection of. They may be easier for me to get hold of than you, but in my frame of reference it's stuff already in my toolbox.

Regards,
D
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 04-19-2002 13:48
D,
Ok, I see what you're saying. The idea of ganging fuses together is certainly an interesting idea and one that I never thought of.
I believe that if you put ten 25A fuses in series, the ampacity will only be 25A. In parallel, you'd have 250A, but I think it could be quite a light show when you exceed the max current. When the first one fails, the cascade would be very rapid. I definitely would not use glass bodied fuses and certainly I'd want to wear my PPE. But I suppose I could use that method if I had nothing else available and I had to determine the amperage. (Thankfully, I still have my clamp-on ammeter.) ;)
Anyway, thanks for your response.
CHGuilford
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 04-19-2002 23:54
CH
Each of your observations seems to be correct. I do know the difference between series and parallel and will blame it on distraction and the hour.

In contrast to my stand on safety, my wayward youth came to mind wherein I used to peel the plastic safety coat off of photo flashbulbs and explode them with an "ignitor" battery... made quite a pyrotecnical display for film. I guess thats why my kids call me "pop"? Ten more beers and I'll let you know how far the glass flies with ten GMA pigtail fuzes... watch for my picture on Action News- Ill probably be the guy in the ambulance (hooked up to all the wires and tubes :) Your observation about the danger of the glass bodied fuzes, and the precautions necessary, is indeed valid and for my suggestion I can only admonish myself for my lack of respect for the danger of small glass missiles flying around the shop. If it wasn't the dumbest thing I ever said it rates as a sound runner-up.

Regards,
D
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 04-20-2002 13:04
D,
I have to say that I enjoy your writing style! I figured you knew the difference between series and parallel from later in your post, just thought I'd point it out 'cause that's the kind of guy I am.

You reminded me of my youthful days when my brother and I used to make big firecrackers out of little ones. I won't relate all the details, not wanting to contribute to anyone's delinguency with anything that might not have already been tried or thought of. It's amazing A) how much power explosives can have, B) how much trouble idle hands can get into, C) that we didn't kill or maim ourselves, and D) it's a good thing that fissionable materials are nearly impossible for a teenager to find or else we'd have REALLY been in trouble!

Anyway. thanks for your input and clarifications. (If it's any consolation, one of the fuses probably won't explode) :)
CHG

Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 04-21-2002 06:41
Why not use a regular cartridge fuse like in a house service. Or for that matter a circuit breaker. Standard hardware store items. No glass. Because of their larger dimensions less likely to continue to arc after they blow.

Bill
Parent - - By mattinker Date 04-21-2002 13:15
Fuses are more complicated than first meets the eye. First of all, fuses are "under-rated" in other words, a 25amp fuse will probably accept 30 amps at least for a short time. The reason for this is to accomadate start up surge, a split second sharp rise in amps on all coil equipment. When you switch on something with a motor or a transformer, there is a suudden flow of current which is choked by the magnetic feilds in the windings. This phenomena is known as "back E.M.F" (Electro Motive Force) The higher the section of the wire in the winding, the lesser the resistance the greater the surge current. A flurescent light gives a slight peak, an arc welder has quite a peak! The fuse has to cope with surge so the make them stronge. For certain uses, there special "slow-blow" fuses, even higher than normal amperage!

Further up the thread, sombody said "why don't welders fell the current through the welder" some people do! Some people have a lower resistance (electrical, mesured in ohms!) than others. People who are very physically relaxed have a lower resistance than those who are tense. I fall into the category of those who have a low resistance, I feel light shocks when others don't. The electrode coatings on stick rods are sufficiently resistant so that we don't fell anything. The danger comes more from the surprise of getting a shock than the current. By this I don't mean that the current can't do anything to you, just normally one doesn't weld in bare feet in the rain! When welding up high on a ladder for example, people have died from the fall, others have fallen into inspection pits in garages!

There's a lot to all this!

Hope this helps Matthew TINKER

Parent - By RonG (****) Date 04-22-2002 13:24
Sounds like you fella are designing Christmas decorations.

This by far not a perfect world and thoery dosent always coincide with reallity. And more welding is done in the fields than in the Labs.Thats reallity

I have worked in under ground mines and other places where water was every where and unavoidale. You stand in water up to your knees and all the leads are wet.

Here are some things you need to know about a welding machine in the water.
As soon as you pick up the stinger you feel the shock of the voltage and Milli-amps, not welding current, if the you were conducting welding current the machine would come off the idle position and you would be juist crispy critter that part is real easy.

As soon as you strick your arc the shocking effect stops.

The above were DC machines not AC. I would not consider trying that with an AC machine or AC current.

I am not brave or stupid for I only followed in the foot steps of many before me who never suffered any ill effects.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Volts to Amps Conversion

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