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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding up flanges to make spools
- - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-17-2009 08:34
As some of you may know I'm the fitter(inexperienced for sure) and not so inexperienced welder out on this job doing chill/hot water pipe. Got to building up spools( I guess that's what they are called in pipefitter terms) Piece of pipe with a flange on either end? Also, these are blind flanges??(again, unsure....the pipe is not but welded but fits inside)

Anyhow, laid my piece of pipe in the pipe vice, got it level and set the first flange up there. Tack it in place and then leveled it on the face of the flange, rolled it 90 degrees and then leveled the face again and then rechecked the first position to make sure it did not change. Once they were both level I'd tack and check level. When all the tacking and checking was done I'd weld out the flange. Then I'll swap ends so the blank end is under the chain portion of the vice. I'll check level on the pipe again long way, then two hole the flange and level. Then I'll get my second flange and two hole it, slip it over the pipe and level it off. I need them to be certain lengths, 12" and 24" so I measured the flange face to face and made a mark on the pipe where the top part of the flange will set. I'll level the flange(two hole) and tack it. Then I'll level the face and give it a small tack, then rotate 90 degrees and check the face for level and correct, give it a small tack and then rotate back to the original position and recheck level, if all is good then I'll weld it out.

I've built 4 so far, took a 1/2" piece of conduit and it will go through end to end in the bolt holes(2 1/2" flanges) but took measurements and one of the ones that is 24" is 24" but the opposite side is around 23 7/8? If I leveled all of this should it not be true? They were supposed to hire a fitter....which would have suited me fine but, well....you know how it is, so here I am but I'm anal as hell and want this schmidt to looked good and be right. I figured if the flanges were to far out of wack my conduit test would not work because it is a pretty snug fit in the bolt holes and it slides through all 4 bolt holes easily.

Looking for any tips, tricks from experienced vets that would make it better, don't want to embarrass the craft with a hack job and don't want a new nickname either. Thanks for any info or help!

Shawn
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 10-17-2009 13:13
Your "blind flanges" are actually called slip flanges.
If you will purchase a  "flange square base"  (by CurvoMark) you will save yourself a lot of moving and re-positioning of your work.

Your 1/8" error in length very well could be just result of the error you get in reading the bubble of your level.

Griff
Parent - - By Johnyutah (**) Date 10-17-2009 13:47
Shawn are you using two hole pins if not that would be the first tool I would buy. If you don't have any take two bolts and lay your torpedo across them to insure your lined up. As for your issue with keeping them square you can use a good framing square set across the face of the flange then measure at the back of the flange and at the end of the square. Also if they have you fitting up get yourself a couple sets of chain grips and some short pieces of angle.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-17-2009 17:43
Yeah, got a set of two hole pins from a guy off of here, actually just had him drop another set in the mail today. Want to put a level on the flange I weld on first while I level out the other one so I can compare the bubbles instead of swapping pins back and forth.
Parent - By Duke (***) Date 10-19-2009 11:36
to add to what johnyutah says here, a curvomark dial level sitting on your pipe has strong enough magnets to hold a steel framing square hanging  over the face of your flange, get you in the ballpark with true and length.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-17-2009 18:17
I'd say your probably right Griff. I'm guessing a little off to one side on the bubble compared to the reading of the bubble on the other flange could be the problem. Swapping pins back and forth from one end to the other and trying to get the bubble identical is a bit tricky. Got some more pins coming, hopefully be here monday or tuesday and I'll leave the level on the set flange and get the other set identical. I'll check on that curvomark thing, this is a single hand job so don't want to spend a ton on tooling but may come in handy for my biz, don't know. Thanks for the info.

Shawn
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 10-17-2009 23:11
If I remember correctly, the flange square base is about $90.00.  I understand not wanting to spend a "ton of money" but by being able to do this job by yourself and quicker than with a tape measure, it is a good investment.

You have already figured out that you need two sets of pins. Swapping back and forth is a pain and invites trouble.

Griff
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 10-17-2009 13:51 Edited 10-17-2009 14:03
http://www.pipefitter.com/existing_php/flange.php

Shawn,

If you scroll down to the Flange Aligner Base you will get the idea.
You don't have to use this tool but you can use any straight edge such as a level. You can also use a tape to measure the gap close to the flange and then as far away from the flange as possible. That takes two people, usually. I prefer a square(s) as opposed to a level for fitting flanges.
It's possible that IF you were only 1/16" off with the fit and you welded it out without consideration you may have made the flange draw in the wrong direction therefore doubling the dimension. I usually check the flange after it is tacked up and it is close but not perfect I mark the spot that it needs to be drawn to. That is where I start and stop each pass but I check it after each pass so that I don't over draw it. This works in the jack stand if you can roll the piece. Even if it doesn't get the flange perfect it will get it closer.
In the mechanical piping world you usually have some tolerance (room for error) that you may not have in say, the nuclear world. That is not said to encourage sloppy pipe fitting but if you are attaching a Butterfly valve to the flange, a slight mis fit will not necessarily matter. If you have flex connectors nearby, that also will compensate for slight imperfections in the fit. Again, use the weld out technique to your advantage.
1/8" error in length in most situations will not matter as long as it is not compounded. FYI, you probably already know this, you should weld the inside and outside of the slip on flange. The OD fillet weld should be at least as large as the wall thickness of the pipe. 1.04T I think. Don't have B31.1 with me.
Don't sweat it too much Shawn. If it looks good to the eye (plumb, level, square, perpendicular, etc.) it is good. The water doesn't care.
Hope this helps.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 10-17-2009 14:22 Edited 10-17-2009 14:33
Another bit of advise, I recess the pipe approximately 1/2" the hub thickness of the flange. About 1/2" normally. When welding the inside use caution that no arc marks or splatter gets on the serated raised face. It could cause a leak.
On very short spools to be prefabbed- say 12" or so. I find a flat level surface and place four 3/8" or 1/2" (larger nuts for larger pipe diameters) nuts on the floor on the inside on the flange. Level the flange to earth. place the SQUARE pipe end inside the flange and on top of the nuts. Tack and level the pipe. After the four tacks I check with a square and tape or two squares and then weld out as mentioned in the other post. This is very useful when fabbing short pieces and you don't want to fight the chain vise and jack stand. Plus it is easy for one man to do by his self. No one wants to work with me so I use this alot :)

There are lots of good books out there. This web site has a great selection.
My most used pipefitting book is this one. Many show fitting techniques.
http://www.pipefitter.com/existing_php/PTPM.php
Another favorite from Canada I think.
http://www.pipefitter.com/existing_php/IPT.php
Parent - - By F-17 (**) Date 10-17-2009 15:54
The best trick I ever learned for slip in flanges was to block scribe the inside of the flange bore with a soap stone or silver pencil to show you your "Reveal" use a small piece of plate and sharpen your stone,hold it still and spin the flange around your block set up,set your mark to the end of the pipe and if it's square(end of the pipe) most times your squaring efforts will be nothing more than "checking",adjustments wont be required.Slip on welding is different everywhere you go,some outfits want them over welded and others like the one I work for now require no  seal weld on the inside.

Bubble fitting might be allright for somethings but I almost NEVER do it because it's a really good way to get into trouble QUICK.If your going to bubble fit get a really good level,I think the best torpedo level made that's very affordable is a Stabila,bubble fits the wires exactly and the magnets are very strong so it doesn't fall and recalibrate itself every time you turn around.They are about 30-40 bucks.Seems like you were working around pumps,pumps require persnickty fitting because even though it bolts up run time reliability will be decreased if undo stress is exerted on the pump.While I don't condone it I'd suggest leaving yourself 2 outs near the pump one at the suction and discharge flange,bolt the flanges to the pump,then tack it up remove the spools and weld them up however the chips fall,quarter it out making sure to get a hot spot stop on each side to even out the stress.I always try to get the last weld on pump piping as far away from the pump as possible and am TOTALLY ANAL with the meausring,I use a transit because levels ,squares and strings will get you close but not near as close as a transit will if used properly.

  As a side note...... the fellow(Harry) that taught me the scribing trick patented a set of squares for pipefitting that work really well.They are called a "Radius square" the name is Blackwater welding.I was also involved in delveloping a tool for pipefitting called a "pipe disector" but it's much more than that its a "Square,45 degree square,flat protractor,pro mag and can be used to square odd degree fittings with a tape measure(I'm the only one so far that knows how to execute this).I was involved with it moneywise and got SCREWED by a guy(Matt) I thought was my freind,with a buddy like that you don't need an ex wife.We came up with the idea collectively,I built the prototype and paid for the patent,basically I got the ball rolling and lost control when my so called "buddy" got a millionaire tool inventor involved.He stole it from us.Mathy dearmen wanted to buy it from us as did Curvomark.What I got out of it was an XMT welder(that I originally bought half of with Matt for $700 each) and 3500$ of my $5000 investment after 5 years time,great interest rate.......negative.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-17-2009 17:49
Lot's of good info, thanks to all! I'm thinking my variation is probably due to the bubble on the level. Pretty close here, looks about the same there and I bet that will tiny bit will be compounded when it's all done. Guess my only comparison would be just a slight measurement difference in a set of stringers on stairs and how much 1/32" of an inch turns into over 27 feet of stringer length.

I don't want this to look like "hack-n-nomics 101" when I'm done, but have no guidance other than you folks here, no experience in fitting this stuff(other job had fitter and that was his job and my turn to take a break) so figuring all of this out so errors are a given as much as I am wanting to avoid them. So far though it's turning out good.

Heres some of what I've got done so far...
Parent - - By up-ten (***) Date 10-18-2009 02:56
Jeez Shawn that looks like a tight spot your in all day. How many times have you wacked your head?
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-18-2009 06:15
Only once and that was outside the hole in the mechanical room on a sprinkler head! Those things sting!!
Parent - By up-ten (***) Date 10-18-2009 18:00
And all that cussin' didn't set it off either huh?   lol
Parent - - By mightymoe (**) Date 10-18-2009 23:26
Hey Shawn,
Could some of the 1/8" off come from the weld drawing the flange?
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 10-19-2009 00:45 Edited 10-19-2009 00:48
Some items to consider,
One faux paux many people make with slip on flanges is they don't center them up on the pipe. The flange bore is somewhat larger than the OD of the pipe. I like to make a "V" shaped spacer from 1/16" (tie/bailing) wire a couple of inches longer than the "neck length" of the flg bore. Insert from the gasket side of the flange and tack the bottm inside first (this also keeps the flange closer to square with the pipe when fitting and welding solo). Remove wire, square up and tack the top INSIDE! Square and tack your sides then tack the outside of the flange 45 degrees off from the inside tacks, NOT in line with them!
Weld one quarter then the opposite. At this point it doesn't matter if you skip to the outside or finish quarter welding the inside. Just maintain your opposing pattern no matter what.

The best 2 hole pins SCREW together and better than that are the Curve-o-mark that has the offset partially threaded holes that don't have to be unscrewed all the way.

If making spools, don't 2 hole the first flange, it's a waste of time. Most fitters use the 1/2" set back as a general rule even when it is not applicable (ie. wall thickness in excess of 7/16"), so your 24" spool would be a 23" cut length.

Learn to use a framing square to fit flanges and 2 squares for tees and 90s when ever possible for that matter.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-20-2009 09:58
I don't start on one side and weld all the way around. I've had some stuff draw so I try to run about 2 inches, then go to the opposite side and run to and kinda stagger it. My thought was maybe it would not draw.....maybe it is, but I think as someone said it's probably in the bubble on my level, a little off here and a little off there. I keep it between the lines but not perfect dead center, might be the problem if I don't get both ends exact. Gotta do some more later this week so more practice and figuring something out.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 10-20-2009 14:55
Fitting pipe is just like firearms markmanship...AIM SMALL / MISS SMALL
As mentioned earlier, when fitting on the stands and vice, learn to use squares as much as possible.
Parent - - By ronnie taylor (**) Date 10-19-2009 00:07 Edited 10-19-2009 01:11
Hello Shawn,  I wanted to ask a question about the sixth picture, as I am still learning about fitting. Would that be considered a deadhead ?

Thanks Ronnie
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-19-2009 00:49
What's a "dead head"? still learning myself.
Parent - - By ronnie taylor (**) Date 10-19-2009 01:03
5 90's without a pump between. wouldn't that be total restriction of flow?
Parent - - By Johnyutah (**) Date 10-19-2009 02:00
If it's a steam line it's not as big of a deal as it would be with a thicker liquid. I would assume thats the case in the pic but yes you are right that would be a dead head if the footage is short enough it is based on the amount of footage from the first fitting to the last if I remember correctly.
Parent - - By ronnie taylor (**) Date 10-19-2009 02:10
Thank you sir, I wasn't sure if it made a difference, Like I said I'm still learning. Thank you.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-19-2009 10:04
You got me Ronnie, I had to put that there cause there is NO WAY I could come out on the other side of the two pipes or over the top for that matter. The wanted this one to go down the other side so it would run with the supply line. The one in question is a chill water return back out to the street. Hidden behind the other pipes is a 2" stub out so they can hook up to copper for that return. Got me wondering now....
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-24-2009 09:33
Showed the guy over the job the sixth picture, asked about the "deadhead" thing and he said it was not a deadhead(he's a pipefitter by trade back in the day....so he says) and he said they'll be so much suction that it'll be alright. It does drop about 15ft over about 75ft down to some 8" back to the pump house. I did talk to a guy that did the gas pipe a bunch and he said, "it's a deadhead" and something about needing 12"-24" between the last two elbows. Figure if I cut out two fillers 12" long and put them in and dropped the horizontal portion down that would be alright......but, he don't want to do it, he's the boss, I'm the hand, if it don't work out he's been informed and I'll get paid to go back in and do it right, told them I was no pipefitter in the first place.....
Parent - - By pipehead (***) Date 10-25-2009 01:45
What kinda code is this job to?

Hey cummins just a small tip.....in the sencond pic up from the bottom if at all possible you need to ad your pieces in longer and keep from having a joint that close to a fitting. Most of the mechanical contractors i've worked for thats a no no.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-25-2009 04:18
Thanks for the tip pipehead, I will definetly log that in my memory and lay out accordingly. The last guy(fitter) I worked with had some chopped pieces like that so figured(he was a fitter and knew what he was doing) and continued on. But he's not here on this job, saving a dime I guess. Thank you again!

Code???? Talked to several guys(welders) and what I'm typically hearing is the chill pipe is not coded, one guys a welder in NY and they code everything! Been running uphand 6010/7018 cause it aint gas or oil. Worked with a welder doing this same type of stuff(chill pipe) on another job and hell, he'd take a factory beveled 90, slam it against an unbeveled end of the pipe and weld it up. I just thought, wow! Another guy beveled both ends and would butt them together and crank the heat up running a 6010, this is just a guy I talked to that did chill pipe before and that's how he ended up doing it. All and all the one constant is....."it's not coded". I figure everything has to be coded and mentioning this now, here someone will be in the b31 somewhere digging out the code! LOL!! At least I'll learn something cause so far all I'm hearing is...."it's not coded", and can't afford to run out and buy the aws books to find out myself, would like some of those but I like my house and kids like to eat for some strange reason.

I'm real interested in the oil/gas industry and learn all I can about the code, talk to guys that are in it and learn, learn and learn. When I did the job for these folks running the 2" gas I'd tell them we can't do it like this or like that because code etc or something like that and they'd just stand there with the deer in the headlights look. I could've told them space monkeys needed to weld the first weld on the the weld-o-lets and they would have likely believed me. Keep on going with these guys gonna have to start to learn b31 I guess, just not my cup of tea. Basically, these folks know nothing about the welding end of it. That's why I went with uphand, figured it would likely fall under b31 somewhere if it does, 25-30psi on this sucker and my kid could weld it up.
Parent - - By chris2698 (****) Date 10-25-2009 08:07
after just reading you're post I remember a welder friend of mine telling me he had to weld alot of chill pipe up and they were going to take two pieces of pipe niether beveled and butt them up and have the welders weld them up. This welder friend of mind begged and begged them to at least bevel one side of the pipe to get some good penetration in it, Strange I guess there are no codes for this the welder himself has to play the role in being the code man
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-25-2009 09:45
Glad to here someone else out in the world say that. Yeah, I bevel both sides, heck my uncle said if ya did'nt bevel both and just one at least leave a gap so you can penetrate. The stuff I'm doing has very little landing on it.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 10-26-2009 03:27
The specs will determine the code. Typically this will fall under B31.1(Power Piping) and sometimes B31.9 (Building Service Piping) Chill water, steam, condensate and hot water piping is code work.
The specs and the code will absolutely require bevels, gaps and full penetration. I've taken contract jobs where I just weld what the fitters (or sheet metal helpers) tack up and have had ungodly fits.
As far as uphill or downhill weld progression, that is determined by the WPS. If the EOR (Engineer of Record) accepts the downhill WPS you can make production welds down hill. If the WPS is for uphill only then you can only weld uphill for production welds.
Of course, in this field, many mechanical contractors do not have a WPS and if they do, the welders and fitters have never seen them. Or even know what they are.
As mentioned in another post, some do excellent work.

http://www.triadcareers.com/content/2009/08/28/article/family_sues_duke_over_workers_death
This is why it is to be installed to a code.
I understand chill water will not scald you but a ruptured line could present electrocution hazards or an 80 psi line can knock you down and cause harm.   Steam, condensate and hot water, well, they can kill you even at low pressures.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-27-2009 02:59
"Of course, in this field, many mechanical contractors do not have a WPS and if they do, the welders and fitters have never seen them. Or even know what they are.
As mentioned in another post, some do excellent work."

You said it all right there, WPS???? What are those?? LOL!! Good information swsweld, glad I posted this, learned a ton from you guys on this subject! Thanks!

Shawn
Parent - - By pipehead (***) Date 10-25-2009 16:04
Some states are coded and some aren't so i just wondered... I have a company I do some for that it might as well be code work because they make sure everything is perfect! Then another one out here is like you talked just butt'em up and go at least they put a gap though.

plus we just 5p downhill 2 or 3 passes and call it good. makes life alot easier especially when the pipe is already hung
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-27-2009 03:04
I don't think they'd really care how I did it as long as there are no leaks. To be quite honest all the stuff I did outside was downhill, 6010 full pen fill and cap. Not the greatest at uphill caps with a 7018 and their idea of a "bell hole" was comical at best. They want no leaks, no disasters. Heck, we're getting ready to demo the hot water line back and start getting the existing line hooked up and they can't tell us which one is supply or return yet! Whoever put it in before did'nt mark anything. Waiting on the engineer,designer or whoever to get back Thursday.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding up flanges to make spools

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