lets talk QC for a moment

Date 10-18-2009 06:42

You are correct, the oldest man in the world is the smartest.
It sounds like you are on top of the welding game, good job.

3.2

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 10-23-2009 10:52

3.2 lol

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-18-2009 12:56

J-rod

I don't see the problem

You have to make the welds.. All he has to do is look at them..

It takes a lot more experience to make the things.

An in-house inspector need not determine why a weld is one way or another, his job is to review the weld for compliance and that's it.

Getting pissed off about other people is a waste of calories anyhow :)

By eekpod

Date 10-18-2009 22:48

and don't forget, he has to sign off on those welds, versus a welder has to make them. When something goes wrong, they usually ask who inspected it first vs, who made the weld, at least in my industry.

By mightymoe (**)

Date 10-18-2009 23:17

I agree. He's the inspector. What's the big deal. Everyone gets their start somewhere.

By mightymoe (**)

Date 10-18-2009 23:19

J-rod,
Use your experience to help the man out. Share your knowledge and make the world a better place.

By Eric Carroll (**)

Date 10-19-2009 00:20

How long does it take to become an inspector? I used to get mad at them, but when its your company you change how you deal with people. The other day we had a structural engineer tell one of my guys that he couldnt make a 1/4" fillet with a 1/8 7018.

By swsweld (****)

Date 10-19-2009 02:00

http://files.aws.org/certification/docs/b5.1-2003-errata.pdf
On page 5
B5.1
5.2 Welding Inspector. A Welding Inspector (WI):
5.2.1 Shall be a high school graduate, or hold a state
or military approved high school equivalency diploma
(e.g., GED).
5.2.2 Shall have a minimum of five (5) years experi-
ence in an occupational function that has a direct rela-
tionship to welded assemblies fabricated to national or
international standards and be directly involved in one or
more of the areas listed under 5.5.

This is from AWS web site. A company can place someone in that position that is not an AWS CWI. The contractor is responsible for their work either way but some specs/jobs will require the AWS-CWI or equivalent if working to other codes=API

AWS D1.1
3.7.3.2 allows you to make single-pass fillet weld up to 1/4" with SMAW. Table 3.7 has more info for each position-this is for Prequalified WPS Requirements

By 803056

Date 10-19-2009 02:17

Be careful you don't become an other contractor with selective reading abilities, i.e., they only read part of the applicable clause and fail to understand that it applys to certain/specific cases only. In this case it is an exception and it applies to electrodes without matching weathering characteristics of the weathering steels being welded.

In other words, make sure you read the entire clause and any other clauses that are applicable to the circumstances involved. In this case start with clause 3.7.3, then 3.7.3.1 and read through the end of clause 3.7.3.2.

Best regards - Al

By swsweld (****)

Date 10-19-2009 03:23

I did read it Al. I am not suffering from selective reading abilities (this time) I am suffering from selective typing abilities. I can't cut and paste D1.1. and had a HUGE interruption at the end that pretty much ended my reply.
I also saw note c on Table 3.7 that states See 3.7.3 for requirements for welding unpainted and exposed ASTM A 588.
I also referenced Table 3.7 that had more info for the posters statement about a structural engineer telling the welder that he could not make a 1/4" weld with a 1/8" rod. We don't know all the details so perhaps the engineer was correct.
Table 3.7 allows Maximum Single Pass Fillet Weld Size (c) for SMAW Flat=3/8" Horizontal and Overhead=5/16" Vertical=1/2"
Maximum Fill Pass Thickness=All Positions=All Weld Types=SMAW=3/16"max fill pass Thickness
Maximum Root Pass Thickness (d)SMAW= Weld Type=All. Flat=3/8" Horizontal=5/16" Vertical=1/2" Overhead 5/16"
d=See 3.7.2 for width to depth limitations

3.7.2 Width/Depth Pass Limitation. Neither the depth nor the maximum width in the cross section of weld metal deposited in each weld pass shall exceed the width at the surface of the weld pass (see Figure 3.1) I can't post that figure.
Engineers aren't always right but if it is not a production problem for the fabricator I would abide with him/her unless the EOR is/has been a pure jerk. I pick my battles wisely as a contractor but I made the reply to Eric as an AWS-CWI not as an other contractor with selective reading abilities. My point to Eric was that there are times that it is allowed.
Sorry if I seem a bit curt but this day didn't end well.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 10-19-2009 13:41

everyone has to start somewhere and have their first job, or first gig as an inspector

at 22 I'm a working welding engineer and having already passed the practice exam I will take the CWI test in 6 months when I have finally accrued enough work experience to become certified.

I've ran into my share of welders who have had more years welding than I have been alive. Some of them seem to share your same attitude.

The point I'm trying to make is don't instantly write people off based on experience or age (either young or old). Personally I try to stay humble learn as much as I can from those around me, and pass along any of the knowledge I've aquired.

By eekpod

Date 10-19-2009 15:32

humble is always better than the bull in the china shop method, especially when you accidently make a mistake or mis speak. We are all human, it happens give and take. I can see the OP thoughts though, but its the way of the world and we all have to try and get along.

By spots

Date 10-19-2009 15:42

It has been challenging working with a bunch of people that think gray hair equals knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of grizzled helpers/welders/engineers/foremen/etc. out there that have been invaluable in my learning the practical application of the code.

But then again there are people in the industry that grew up doing things a certain way. One such person told me:

"That stupid book is for people that don't know what they are doing." -name withheld

And that person had more credibility than myself because of their gray hair.

By the way J-ROD, take the test and join our ranks, we could use your experience.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 10-20-2009 00:44

One of the best welding inspectors I ever worked with could not light and arc.
Welding Inspection and Welding are different disciplines.
Take the CWI test and step in the inspectors shoes then you can equitably compare the difficulties of each discipline.

By ibeweldingsum (***)

Date 10-20-2009 05:58

Hey guy's I've been at this welding game over 25 yrs and I think I want to get my CWI now and let all those young guy's do the welding now. So in saying that what does one do to get there? How long do you have to go to school and all. Just wondering.........?

By Mat

Date 10-20-2009 06:42

One radiographer and weld inspector I had the pleasure of working with in one shop had the craziest white hair (in that it went in every direction!). From what I had heard, he started as a welder and at one point in his younger years was an underwater welder before he got into welding inspection. He's a pretty smart individual and knows his stuff! Weld inspectors definately keep welders on their toes!

By Superflux (****)

Date 10-20-2009 07:29

ibeweldingsome,
No schooling necessary. All you need minimally is a GED and the proper work experience documented. Search this site and download the info, app. (fill it out), send in $$$, schedule test date and locaton. Nothing could be easier. Except for coughing up the test fee.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 10-22-2009 19:09

Don't forget that little ole test they make you take.

By Pipeslayer (**)

Date 10-21-2009 21:03

Not being a smart*** but someone told me this once

DON'T HATE THE PLAYER, HATE THE GAME

By JHarlos (**)

Date 10-25-2009 05:29

not harping on you, but if any helper can take a test and become an inspector I dont want any part of it. You guys are going to get no respect at all in a little while. A guy that knows little can take a test...... he is an inspector......guy takes a welding test, makes 150 welds same inspector bust him out just doesnt make it

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-25-2009 13:47

It looks like you just don't get it.

Inspectors don't "bust out" welders.

Non-compliant welds bust out welders.

Or we could say it another way.

Bad welds bust out welders.

Who gives a crap if the person who identifies your bad weld has 6 years or 60 years or 6 minutes under the hood?

Me thinks you doth protest too much.

You don't want any part of it?? Than you just go off and find a little fantisy world where all the inspectors meet your high personal requirements. So when you make a bad weld... Grandpa can tell you to pack your tool box.

By Pipeslayer (**)

Date 10-21-2009 20:39

In my experience it is with welding and inspecting I've seen it be more beneficial to have not been a welder. Inspectors that do not know how to weld dont go out on the limb to tell spmeone how to make the weld acceptable. It is the welders job to do so. If the inspector knows how to weld he my offer a suggestion such run one more pass around her and she'll be good. The welder does so and when its inspected he put that one pass on the lower leg and the weld still has insufficant throat. Now go back and tell that welder to do it again because you are a LIAR. **** really hit the fan at this point. The guy that did not know how to weld simply reported that the weld did not meet project requirements and moved on to the next inspection. It is the job of foreman and welders to determine weld size and the quality falls on the welder.

By 803056

Date 10-21-2009 21:04

One of my clients said it right and was on point when he told me, "You are being paid by me. You work for me. You answer to me. The contractor isn't paying you. You are not his consultant. I am not paying you to provide him with advice, consultation, or pointers on how to weld or how to make a repair. If you identify a problem it is his responsibility to devise an acceptable repair. If he can't figure it out then he can hire his own consultant."

These words of wisdom where given to me early in my career and they have served me well. I don't advise the contractor unless I am directed to do so by the client and then it is through the client, not directly to the contractor. The contractor is not billed for any of my services (at least not by my company, how the client handles it is not my concern). This policy even extends to administering welder performance qualification on the job site; everything is billed through the client. The bottom line is I try to keep at arm's length from the contractor, even when I've worked with them or for them on other projects.

Offering helpful tips can be viewed as meddling by the contractor and can be used as ammunition for tossing the inspector off the job. When the inspector begins offering advice, he is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

There are times when it is painful to watch the contractor make a boneheaded move, but that's life. Nature has to takes its course and some contractors are definite candidates for the Darwin Awards. Its best if the inspector doesn't place himself in a position to play a supporting roll for that Darwin Award.

That's my humble opinion.

Best regards - Al

By Pipeslayer (**)

Date 10-21-2009 21:11

So true. I learnt early on to not have an opinion on what to do. I will however if told administer a repair procedure. To new CWI's if you go out on these limbsthey will seem small but I promise you 1 will break. I'm speaking for experience sadly. Al's right it can be painful to watch someone just screw up constantly and be talking trash doing it.

By Superflux (****)

Date 10-21-2009 21:21

Pipeslayer,
I hear where your coming from. It is no more the inspectors job to Tell a welder how to weld than it is for him to chip slag for the welder to conduct his inspections. That being said, I am guilty on occaision of "advising" welders on one or more ways to "fix" the discrepancy. I usually toss in the disclaimer by saying "if I were doing this, I would try to blah, blah, blah..." then I also may say something to the effect of "course If I had done this, I wouldn't have F'ed it Up and left it like that either".
I try to maintain a positive repore with Production and let them know right off the bat that I'm not making the rules or telling anyone how to do their job. Only making suggestions as to possible alternatives.

The worst is when I have to follow some other QC, and hear about how "he told me to do it this way and now your rejecting it?" Oftentimes, that is NOT the facts, and regardless, my rejections are based on code and specs, not just ... "Holy mackeral!! That's uglier than Rosie O'Donnel in a thong!!!" (yes I have said that though)
My personal experience is that having spent years under the hood makes me a better inspector than "most" who have "not been there", and gives me a certain respect and credibility to those whom I must ply my trade upon.
There's a fair amount of diplomacy involved in QC from all sides and maintain professionalism/integrity with out getting yourself blindsided in a dark parking lot!

By Metarinka (****)

Date 10-22-2009 16:16

amen about the diplomacy part.

true for any job though, i'm in the middle of a "battle" with the management over shop layout, they think welders don't need any standing room to work ( i guess we could sit on top of the tables and machines) and someone made the daft move of already installing very bright white, Shiny vinyl walls because they don't understand that that arc likes to reflect off of that and blind everyone.

By RonG

Date 10-22-2009 18:26

With great pleasure I copy and paste from a similar discussion a few years back, take note of the name at the bottom. If you can pass the test and requirments all you need is as follows.

I don't know who protects the inspector other than the inspector. The best ways to do that:
1) Get the scope of inspection activities defined at the start of the job.
2) Have access to the referenced codes and specifications.
3) Have the attitude that you are trying to prove the work is done correctly, even when you find it is not.
4) When you find a problem, get the foreman (or whoever) to look at it with you see if they see the same thing. "Maybe I'm not looking at this right, what do you make of it?"
5) Never quote the code without a copy of it in your hands.
6)Take digital photos of the problem for a visual record. (BE SURE that you have permission to take photos first.)
7) When you can legally and ethically give someone a break, do so.
8) When you have to report what was wrong, be sure to include what was right. But just the facts, no opinions unless asked.
9) Get everything in writing and give everything in writing.
10) Admit your mistakes without any "Yeah,buts".
11) Don't fight battles. Send them up to the next level, and accept the findings.
12) Keep records of everything you do or say.
13) Recognize that there are some things you have no power over and many times that you don't have the full picture.
14) Don't let one bad experience spoil everything. There are better days ahead.
15) Maintain your integrity.
16) Remember that we never stop learning.

Others may have things to add, and I hope they do so, but you are your own best advocate. It would be nice if there is a group or agency to look out for inspectors but I have not heard of any. We all pretty much stand on our own merits, and your sense of justice indicates that you will build up a fine reputation.

Chet Guilford

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 10-24-2009 01:13

Wow! Deja Vu.

By HgTX

Date 10-28-2009 14:46

That "Inspector's Creed" of yours is my favorite thing I've ever read on this forum.

Hg

By vagabond (***)

Date 11-03-2009 12:51

Thanks for this one CH. It's going in my pre-job file. Nice work.

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 10-22-2009 19:24

It was tough, deciding exactly where I wanted to interject some of my thoughts into this thread. I think this is what did it: [QUOTE] "Now go back and tell that welder to do it again because you are a LIAR."[/QUOTE]

Okay, I will say that I have seen and heard a lot of folks giving advice of varying value to welders over the years. However, it's not the inspector's problem if the welder takes the advice, or worse yet takes it in the wrong context. The welder needs to understand that he or she may take such advice with a grain of salt, then conduct the repairs as best he or she knows how. When a welder is at the level where a formal weld inspection takes place, I would assume that the welder knows what is required to make a conforming weld. Now, if I give advice to my welders (after all I am the contractor's inspector first) it is done with the intent to make my life easier, and the welds better. An inspector who has no welding experience might tell someone what is wrong with a weld visually, but cannot even begin to tell the welder what it will take to fix it.

I have two guys working for me as inspectors who never welded a day in their lives. I am teaching them to spot defects and I am even pushing one in the direction of CWI. They are very good at spotting defects; so good that I get complaints from the welders that they're finding too much (which just makes me tell my guys they're not finding nearly enough :) ). I spot check their work, especially after receiving complaints, and if I find they made mistakes, I correct them on the spot. I can't imagine that one of them would go out on a limb to try to explain a requirement to a welder outside of a strict read-it-from-the-book code lesson.

Now, if I give advice of any sort it is done with the weight of my knowledge and experience behind it; should the welder follow that advice to a repeat failure, then I take partial responsibility for that. However it is still the welder's responsibility to meet code; it is mine to ensure that he or she does. If the welder followed my advice without understanding fully what I was trying to impart and without knowing what the requirement is, it's not my problem. I'm not a liar in that case, am I? And for the record, I agree that the owner's inspector should never give advice.

By waccobird (****)

Date 10-22-2009 18:21

Hopefully with age comes wisdom and then we learn the battles to fight and the ones to duck.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 10-23-2009 11:07

humble means you have the very valuable ability to readily learn or be taught without interference from your history or past experience.

Being humble around others in my trade is an advantage for me....I might learn something in the space of 5 minutes that might take me years to learn otherwise. I wish I was better at being humble then I am.

If I can be human and humble and personable around this 2nd year Mech engineer, he will be much more likely to listen to me as well as share his thought processes with me. Therefore I can help prevent his mistakes before I have to wrestle with them, have a better chance of achieving dialogue that helps me as well as him. Help a coworker establish his position as well as keep my job smooth and easy. I could care less if he just got out of school or has been on the job for 25 years...If I have to work with him then...I have to work with him.

By JHarlos (**)

Date 10-25-2009 05:50

now, I do think that I have been a little unclear. The inspectors o n this job are "good guys" and they do not give me a hard time. Every weld I make is made so I do not have to comeback to it. The idea of this thread is "young qc that know nothing of welding" judging my welds. I have spent years doing this job even been an inspector. Yeah I said it. But as a welder I am always an inspector. "Inspecting is not to be done by the guy that just flipping burgers, but should be done by the guy that has the burns to tell you why its wrong and how to fix that $H1T." Steve Dungan

By Superflux (****)

Date 10-25-2009 07:07

jrod,

"but if any helper can take a test and become an inspector"
I'm just having a tough time undestanding your comments. First off. What test were you refering to? If it is the AWS/CWI, I've never met or even heard of a helper that passed this test. Are you acquainted with any that have?

"tell you why its wrong and how to fix that $H1T." This is not the QC's job. Inspection will find and identify the rejectable flaws. How to...That is between you and or your boss to figure that one out. If you don't know how to fix your own "F"-ups, you aint a real welder..period!

"I have spent years doing this job even been an inspector." What test did you pass to be an inspector??
"guy takes a welding test, makes 150 welds same inspector bust him out just doesnt make it" Any ethical (REAL) Inspector doesn't (can not) just bust welders out for no reason...Granted, you the welder could have had a bad day (hangover/fight with ex over custody etc.) and violated the 3 shots (bad x-ray) and you're out rule. Were all 150 welds subjected to multiple NDE (VT in addition to any other instrument based methods)?
"But as a welder I am always an inspector." So, then, when you weld, you must also be contacting, contracting and coordinating NDT crews, interpreting the results, filing and verifying MTR's, Receiving and documenting parts/materials crossed referenced to Puchase orders. Attending Production and HSQE meetings. Whew, when do you have time to weld? How much you get paid to do both jobs???

Dude, you really got the red a$$ for QC?
Sure thankful I wasn't welding on any of those jobs you QC'ed on...
"young qc that know nothing of welding" ... I like welding when there is amateurish QC around..they are way too much fun to baffle. I'd just like to state that if the aforementioned "young qc" is in possesion of a valid AWS/CWI then he obviously knows more than the welders ... if nothing else, how to obtain credentials for his chosen occupation.

But then again, I've always said..."welders would bi*ch even if their cellmate had a little pecker"...

By jrw159

Date 10-25-2009 14:03 Edited 10-25-2009 16:30

J-ROD,
"young qc that know nothing of welding" judging my welds.

You may not think so but if the certification through AWS is current/valid then he obviously knows "something" about welding and is indeed qualified to "judge" your welds.

You say you have been an inspector. Where you certified??

"Inspecting is not to be done by the guy that just flipping burgers,"

Burger flippers do not qualify to take the test let alone have the welding knowledge to pass the test.

You do not say what the weld was "busted" for and whether it was a good or bad call.(EDIT: It does not appear you even had your weld "busted".) Are you intimatly familiar with the visual acceptance criteria of the code in question?

As for "how to fix that $H1T." that is not part of his responsibility as an AWS CWI as far as AWS is concerned.

I would suggest that if you think an AWS CWI is so easy to achieve that a "burger flipper" can get it then maybe you should put your money where your mouth is, cough up the cash, fill out the paper work and sit down and take that easy little ole test. Until you do that you are just another welder that is pissed because your weld got busted.

If I had a nickle for every time I have heard "I have been welding longer than you have been alive" or " I was welding while you were still crapping green" I would be a rich man. However, very few of these guys could even tell me what code they were working to or seen the code book, let alone find, for example, table 6.1 in AWS D1.1 to begin to tell me if the call I was making was right or wrong.

So to those that think it is so easy to get, go get it. :-)

jrw159

By Metarinka (****)

Date 10-26-2009 14:01

amen Jrw159

I'm in that boat right now as I mentioned before

age doesn't magically mean experience. On top of that if you can pass the CWI test, it more or less means you at least met the baselines for inspecting welds to AWS standards. First job or 25 years of experience you'll have the basic skills neccessary to inspect welds which is different from welding.

Give us young guns a chance before you pass judgement

By 803056

Date 10-26-2009 14:57

Much of what has been said is valid.

I took my CWI examination back in 1981 when the cards that were issued were clay tablets inscribed with a chisel.

I took the examination when an engineer that was doing the inspection challenged me to take the examination. He asked me what I thought of inspectors. I told him in no uncertain terms what I thought of them and left little doubt in his mind that I didn't think too highly of them.

He asked me if I knew anything about the AWS CWI program and I replied that I didn't. He asked me if I knew any inspector that was a CWI and again I replied that I didn't.

His response was that he didn't disagree with my opinion of most inspectors working on projects at that time. However, there was a move in the industry to improve the situation by ensuring the visual welding inspector knew the basics of welding and inspection and that to become a certified welding inspector there was a test that had to be passed. He said, "Al, you seem to have a pretty good handle on welding and your welds prove you know how to weld. I would like to challenge you to take the CWI examinations. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you pass you will have a credential that is accepted by the industry and validates your knowledge of welding."

I took him up on that challenge and told him that it would be more interesting if the wager included dinner. "When I pass the examination, I pick the restaurant and you pick up the tab!" was my bet.

He said it would only be fair if "When you fail, I pick the restaurant, and up pick up the tab, and fair warning, Mickey D's is not my idea of fine cuisine!"

The bet was on. Mind you, this was the engineer that said to me, "Al, I can always tell a welder, but I can't tell him much!"

I haven't missed a meal since I passed the examination and that engineer and I still work together on many projects. He's in his 70's and still works every day. He gets some of the most interesting jobs I work on and most of my "expert witness" work is through my association with him.

I can remember how many times I thought the inspector was being too picky or simply being a pain in the butt, but looking back, they were sweethearts compared to me. The view is dependent on the seat you are sitting in.

Best regards - Al

By johnnyh (***)

Date 10-26-2009 15:26

I wish this thread would have been available when I had my first CWI job. I felt like I was there to not only find the defects but to explain how to fix them. It was a headache especially because my spanish isn't so great and the job was for Zachry. ;) I had the mentality that it was my job to make sure this project is built correctly when in hindsight I shouldn't have been so worried about explaining how to weld it correctly. I guess that is part of paying your dues. I was trying to not get run off and to stay busy so I did what I thought was efficient.

By RonG

Date 10-28-2009 19:06

J-Rod, the discussion was enlightening to say the least.

How is it that you missed the point that for all intent and purposes what they want is a warm fuzzy feeling they get (they being managers) from having a signature (or stamp) from an independent source that says the weld meet the stated requirements that you as a Production Welder are not always privy to.

Nevertheless, question is. Why do you even care? If you take his/hers assessment of your welds personal you are wasting time that could be better spent.

Here in our shop we have some very astringent acceptance criteria (well beyond code) and inspectors (level ll’s) that not only do not know any thing about welding they do not want to know anything about it either. But they do know how to UT, MT & PT and have certs to prove it.

As often as not our customers hire outside inspectors to come look over their shoulder.

Bottom line is they have sign there name to the NDE report not you and that is what the rhubarb is all about. Traceability---In colloquial terms, we call it a Paper trail.

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 10-29-2009 16:49

I tell my welders (and all the other trades) that if they don't like my inspecting they have options. 1. There's the gate. 2. Put me out of work. 3. Deal with it. :)

By bozaktwo1 (***)

Date 10-29-2009 16:50

I tell my welders (and all the other trades) that if they don't like my inspecting they have options. 1. There's the gate. 2. Put me out of work. 3. Deal with it. :)

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 11-03-2009 23:29

Was he A CWI?

By JHarlos (**)

Date 11-07-2009 22:28