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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / mirrors??
- - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 10-20-2009 01:54
Anybody got tips on making a mirror last a bit longer?   I use one on occassion and I generally have two, one to weld with and one to check my weld with.  I've tried grease and a few other things but generally in a tight spot I just destroy the mirror with smaw splatter. I have even used 3m double sided tape to hold a clear cover lense on seems to be the best solution so far? 

Is their a better quality mirror out there? Or something I can smear on it to keep the splatter from sticking yet not blurr it to the point that it's difficult to see.
Just curious what everone else is using haven't been around to many guys that have much use for a mirror in their day to day operation.

Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 10-20-2009 13:08
Interesting.  Its not something I've ever had to deal with, but I know how grinding spark love to pit glass (just look at the lightbulbs or the tv in my shop).
I've heard that some plastic actually resists being pitted by spatter better than glass, but the way that plastic scratches, I wouldn't expect it to last, so I'm thinking that something cheap and easy to replace is the way to go.
How about cell phone "screen protectors".  Its a sheet of very clear (optically good) plastic, that's sticky on the back.  If you find ones pre-cut for a discontinued cell phone, they should be really inexpensive.
Once its no longer clear, peel off, and carefully apply the next one with a credit card (to smooth it down, without  bubbles, kinda like a decal).
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-20-2009 13:57
We use polished stainless steel mirrors. If they get bad you can grind em down and repolish them with 2000+ grit sand paper
Parent - - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 10-20-2009 14:51
Thanks!   I never thought about using polished ss I'll give that a shot.........On the cell phone covers I have a stack of them that I keep around for my blackberry, garmin, etc.  They work great but They didn't last long on the mirror :(   Thanks for all the input  ss seems like the way to go..........
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-20-2009 19:21 Edited 10-20-2009 21:30
Hmmm, interesting but I have to ask this, What do you use to hold the mirror in the optimal position where you can see the joint to deposit the weld and yet one can simultaneously can place it in a location where the face of the mirror will be less exposed to spatter??? This is how you want to position your mirror...

Many moons ago, before modular construction became all the rage in building nuclear powered submarines for the USN, there always seemed to be an ever increasing amount of mirror welding to be performed especially in the wet docks which was where the subs were parked in order to sign off as many joints for Navy acceptance which by the time the subs reached the wet docks, most of the welding with mirrors were to sign off pipe hangers and their repairs as well as some repairs of both, structural as well as pipe joints found in various locations throughout the subs compartments. This was part of the effort in order to prepare the subs for both Sea Trials and finally commissioning to the USN.

There were many occasions where we had to use multiple mirrors just to get a clear view of the repairs that needed to be completed in order to sign off the joints in question and we always used the magnet based mirror systems which had three joints where one could swivel one and adjust the next one, or the one closest to the Stainless steel sheet metal mirror holder which had sleeves designed into them so that we could slide in, or out mirrors whenever we wanted and very quickly. We would set into position one mirror to amke clear a corner which we couldn't reach and look into initially, then we would use another mirror to help us look at the joint inside that zone clearly which would then enable us to aim our 3/32" dia. electrodes to deposit maybe only a 1/2 of an inch of weld metal around the corner of a hanger that if not deposited and NDT'd, the Navy wouldn't accept it and we couldn't sign off on it as another item on the punch lists for the Navy to accept the vessel.

We also design a variety of extensions as well as some pretty nifty GTAW torch extensions as well to get into some pretty tough locations which were always found either in the engine rooms or in the torpedo rooms as well although on occasion, there were some doosies to be found in the reactor and COC compartments as well yet, they were more frequent in the first two compartments I mentioned initially... We tried the stainless polishing but we found it not to last anywhere near as long as the mirrors did for our applications because, the trick of using a mirror is to optimize the location of the mirror in relation to where one could estimate where the spatter might fall, and then if the use of naother mirror is required in order to fine tune you angle of sight, then naother mirror was used and by doing so, helped prolong the use of each mirror.

I've done way over a thousand mirror welds so I know what I'm talking about and as an employee of General Dynamics Electric Boat Division, we in the welding department have tried all sort of different scenarios and we came to the conclusion of what worked best for some of the tightest locations to get to by any seasoned shipyard welder from other shipyards all over the country came to experience as the toughest place to mirror weld - HANDS DOWN!!!

Even some of the NASA welders were sent to the EB welding school to get mirror welding training so, believe me when I say that I know what I'm talking about!!! I'm not bragging but, we were without a doubt amongst the best in the world with a mirror or two, or three, or more!!! :) :) :) I worked the third shift crew which performed this type of work all over the shipyard, and not on just one boat and we got more work done on that shift because there were less people crammed into the subs, so we didn't have the distractions found on 1st or second shifts.

So plan your placement according to what I previously mentioned and use more than one mirror if you need to because you can!!! Also, remember that you will see and make oyur moves as if you were welding without a mirror when two mirrors are used - CAPECHE??? Good Luck!!! Yeah right!!! I've broken so many that if it weren't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all LOL!!! :) :) :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-20-2009 19:58
with all the studying into the use of multiple mirrors, I'm wondering was their ever an effort made to use snake cameras? you know the type on the end of long stalks used to check pipes and the like. Seems much more viable to place one of those in a difficult location AND the image can be flipped, so it doesn't confuse the viewer.

and many props for the mirror work, our fabrication is 99% TIG so mirror cleanliness has never been an issue.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-20-2009 21:51 Edited 10-20-2009 21:56
Thanks Ross! ;)

Obviously some of the "gizmo's" we came up with were classified then, and I'm certainly not at liberty to know whether or not they have been declassified since and I'm talking about way back in the late seventies - early eighties... And even if I were, I would not even dare to acknowledge their existence either way or reveal any specifics other than the fact that some of the technology developed was adapted to perform  some very interesting repairs in the commercial nuclear world if you catch me drift!!! ;) ;) ;)

Now Metarinka. you say that 99% of the welding done at the facility you work at is GTAW correct?
Now that's all well and good but, if you folks were working in less than pristine conditions such as what is more likely found in the environment such as in a shipyard, and more specifically within the bowels of the vessels themselves, a polished stainless mirror would not be suitable at all even if it were to be used exclusively with the GTAW process...

In the less than ideal lighting as well as other environmental conditions within the bowels of any ship whether it be a submersible or not, the polished stainless mirrors would not reflect optimally under low light conditions so for that reason alone, the glass mirrors were much more preferable to work with as well as other adaptations of sorts to get the job done as efficiently, and as quickly as possible because for the most part, successful repairs were performed consistently due more than anything else to the fact that constant training and upkeep of training more than anything else was more critical than any "gizmo's!!!" Although the proper adaptation of such available "gizmo's" by proving their viability and usefulness with mock-up training practically insured successful repairs!!! :) :) :)

The aerospace world and the shipbuilding world are two very distinctly different worlds, and do not always interact in adapting certain practices from one to the other. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By low_hydrogen (**) Date 10-20-2009 22:40
Awsome post henry and thanks! All the mirror work I have done has been self taught and placement is key!  I've just been in a couple of situations were to see what I was doing ment having the mirror in the line of fire.  Just figured some guys with more experience (like yourself) would chime in with some tips... for I am land locked in the midwest and have never even seen a shipyard.. The 3m tape with a plastic cover lense over the mirror seems to work ok for me in real tight spots were I have to bend the rod and can only use about 3" at a time.   Had never thought about using multiple mirrors will definitly try that out next time.... When I heard about the ss my first thought was those ss mirrors you see in prison (not that I've been to prison lol!) and was curios if clarity was going to be an issue...

Again thanks!!!  Great tips will give them a try

P.s.  I have used magnetic,  mirrors on a telescopic pole and even old truck mirrors out of the junk yard. Have even taken some broken mirrors and used bubble gum to hold them in place.  Necessity is the mother of invention!!
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-20-2009 22:41
you are right about the different industries, but make no mistake the aerospace industry isn't all glitz and glamour and nice clean facilities. A good portion of my Day is spent 5s'ing the welding area and fighting tool and nail to get some things cleaned up. I could see your point about the mirror though. We are building pressure vessels that are very long and narrow and have semi automatic GTAW welds. one of the Ingenious welders rigged LED lighting to the mirrors that we place on a boom in order to see welds along the inside and in hard to navigate corners.

I also must add that the mirrors are generally for inspection, seem tracking etc. Not welding. This is semi-auto and automated equipment so there is a less pressing need to use mirrors.

Interesting stories indeed! I've always wondered how many useful pieces of technology have been developed by varying countries but never released due to "national security"
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-21-2009 00:13
I agree!

Usually it is the end user who comes up with such ingenuity, and thank goodness for some open-minded engineers who understand the relevance, and will team up with the end user to improve on the ideas that originate from the shop floor or the job site, because they know that any improvements in labor, time and efficiency whether it be in production or repairs it's usually a win - win for the company.

I thoroughly enjoy these discussions and my only regret is that we are limited in discussing some of the specifics that may be deemed better kept private due to national security concerns even though the top industrialized nations have already implemented similar technologies also but, it's those nations, terrorist entities, and the like that we really don't want reveal too much for them to take advantage of in destabilizing us, or our allies.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-02-2009 11:08
" some very interesting repairs in the commercial nuclear world"
I suspect I know a few of them, remote welding with camera, robotic arms, 6mm fiber camera's, among others. I've seen a feed to a stinger, torch, and others much less the remote welding rigs.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-21-2009 02:55
When You look at what they can do with laproscopic surgery, it certainly wouldn't take much to modify the equipment for TIG welding.

The endoscope they shove up My but could probably be modified for the job.

Of course the aplication would need to justify the cost.
Parent - By ross (***) Date 10-20-2009 20:36
I'm amazed at the experiences that are shared on this forum. Nice post, Henry.

Ross
Parent - - By dbric36 (*) Date 10-22-2009 15:03
I also learned to mirror weld at Electric Boat. Positioning of the mirror or mirrors is important. Spent many a day with 3 bends on the rod with an inch of burnoff. Man I don't miss that.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-22-2009 21:32
When were you there dbric36?

I was there in the late seventies early eighties. :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By dbric36 (*) Date 10-23-2009 13:39
I was there from 1984 to 1993.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 10-22-2009 14:40
Good responses from all.

If I am in a situation that requires mirror welding I avoid ANYTHING  that reduces the clarity of the puddle. New Clear lens, (or non at all), Ullman K2 Mirrors with spares and proper positioning. I use the mirror to make sure my puddle is where it is supposed to be. My hands know what to do.

Ullman Devices at http://www.ullman-devices.com/ull1.htm has part numbers for the replacement mirrors. I much prefer the one puddle I see in a mirror versus the less clear view I get with a clear lens. Having spare mirrors is my preferred method though the cell phone protectors seem like a good idea.

Of course my problem now is getting my bifocals to line up with my lens with the mirror with the puddle! A mini Camera on the end of a stinger is the way to go:) HUD in the hood!
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-22-2009 16:42
"I use the mirror to make sure my puddle is where it is supposed to be. My hands know what to do."

I think that says it all, from my experience anyway. You must possess the skill to weld blindfolded and have the confidence to do so in order to perform mirror welding.
Then it seems to be more a mirror placement issue. Sux when you first set up a mirror or 2 only to realise the torch, rod or your hand is blocking the view.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-23-2009 10:09 Edited 10-23-2009 10:30
DANG  Henry   "clap clap clap"     I am impressed.  ""(let me say that that is not very easy to say in the least".!!

I have used the stainless and even aluminum mirrors  in non TIG work for the simple fact there are more survivable......both scratch easy ( I do not care what you say!!!!  stainless scratches easy!!!)     But for all tig work I am using GLASS buddy.

I have had to use the multiple mirror with machinists mag arm trick a few times to carry a joint but I really like the guy holding it and moving it for you more ...gives you an excuse to curse like heck and yell.

Any way, nice thread, nice posts......and no kids its not a legend...everything you have ever heard about was done with a mirror...whether vessel work to nuke...there was a guy who was good at it and did it.
Best regards
Tommy

P.S. Metarinka   "but make no mistake the aerospace industry isn't all glitz and glamour and nice clean facilities"    Aerospace is just as crude or actually worse then any other industry, just depends on the company.   Sad part is aerospace is so slow to change methods....the company I am working for is at the very minimum, 15 years behind the curve of world class production companies.  They need to wake up because the competition is willing to retool/re-man re manage to compete.  Just trying to say everybody thinks just like you say all state of the art and perfect/situation......nope not really....but the pace is a slower.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-24-2009 19:46 Edited 10-24-2009 19:50
That's what I was thinking, borescopes. We've used them as mechanics, heck I had one in my toolbox and has been sitting on a shelf in the shop since I got out. Good topic for sure and great posts, have done 4-5 mirror welds in the last two weeks and have burried 3-4 mirrors!! LOL!!

Pipewelder, you said it when you said, "My hands know what to do". I was ok as long as I let my hand take control and block out my mind. Once I let my eyes and mind slip into the picture they said,"hey, what the heck is that hand doing???" and then I had to stop!

In the short few I've done I have learned mirror placement, lighting, having helmet filter and lense clean, did have the "oh crap" hands in the way thing, all important factors and from reading it's lots of setup, getting it right. Good tips! Thank you!!

Excellent posts Henry! Thanks for sharing that information, much appreciated from this nub!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-24-2009 21:51
Thank you all for those kind words but, I wouldn't be comprehensive in my description without mentioning the importance of covering up any piping or hangers or anything that could easily receive an arc strike if not covered up by either some refrasil/novatex, or some plain old EB Green, or any other type of duct tape in order to insure that the only thing that's going to receive a weld deposit without having any arc strikes surrounding it, is gonna be the location you're aiming the rod or tungsten at!!!

So don't forget to cover up and cover up real good!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Steve.E (**) Date 10-27-2009 09:24
I think Henry is on the money in that you cant beat a good glass mirror but would like to add that when desperate I have used quite successfully one of those gold coated lenses as a mirror.
  Just glue a small piece of sheet steel to the back and attach to your magnet.
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 10-28-2009 21:24
I have even had the helper rip the mirror out of a porta-john and duct taped it into position.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-07-2009 06:08
Funny you should mention that scrappy!! I was well, taking a break in the porta john and happened to notice the mirror and wondered how that would hold up. Would it look odd going into the porta john with a cordless drill and drill bit? darn rivets!
Parent - By rfieldbuilds (**) Date 11-21-2009 03:10
Anyone ever tried covering their mirror with a similar sized piece of glass. This seems like it would work. the glass would be expendable and preserve the mirror.   Hummm, maybe tempered glass.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-29-2009 08:35
$25.00 and you too can own one from the "Gang box":

http://www.thegangbox.com/p-113-ul-mx-mag-base-inspection-mirror.aspx

Well worth the price if you find yourself needing to use a good tool for "mirror" welding, and if you have two available, well then it's like welding without having to react in reverse! ;)
One can always buy the replacement mirrors @ your local welding supplier, and one can also expand the formed guide spaces for sliding in the mirror to accommodate a clear lens over the mirror by bending out the lips of the guides and welding a thin strip of the same dimensions to the stainless steel on both of the bent guides which need to be straightened out prior to welding, so then you can re-bend the guides on the holder to a dimension which will enable you to slide in both the mirror and the clear lens after the welding has been completed for a close to a perfect fit as possible. ;)

So that you now have more space available to slide in both the mirror glass as well as the protective clear lens over it as well, and it will be set in there "snug as bug!"
A real simple modification IMHO! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By dbric36 (*) Date 11-30-2009 13:28
That's what we used at the boat. I think I still have one in my toolbox.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / mirrors??

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