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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Toe cracks in post galvanized PJP welds?
- - By Laredo (*) Date 10-22-2009 03:05
Does anyone have any experience UT'ing post galvanized PJP product for toe cracks? There has been allot of this going on in the sports lighting industry, and I was looking for some insight.

Thanks,
Laredo
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 10-22-2009 18:19
Yes.  There's a company called Lamb-Star that does this.  And a lot of fabricators of high mast illumination poles have in-house procedures.

My understanding is you need to use a smaller transducer at higher frequencies than normal D1.1/D1.5 UT.  But I'm no UT tech.

Hg
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-23-2009 00:06
Laredo,
  I am curious about this as well. I am most likely going to have to deal with this in the near future on a large scale basis. I have heard lots of talk about it and I know it is fixing to surface in a big way.

BTW you would not happen to be "LP" from Fort Worth would you? Or maybe be familiar with him?

jrw159
Parent - - By Laredo (*) Date 10-23-2009 01:38
No, I'm not but I do work for a large producer of highmast illumination poles and we're starting to have issues with these. The inspection for toe cracks is nothing new to me, but this is generally done on CJP poles. Because of some issues recently here in Texas we are being asked to inspect both CJP and PJP (socket fit) .

Laredo
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-23-2009 01:50
Laredo,
  The inspection for toe cracks is par for the course for me as well but much like your post suggests the UT after galvanization is now becoming an issue.

I am well aware of the issues in Texas. I have looked at a few down there.

Please keep in touch concerning this issue as I am working for a light/taffic/power pole manufacturer.

Your company wouldn't happen to be in Alvarado?

jrw159
Parent - By Laredo (*) Date 10-23-2009 02:03
I'm sure this isn't just a Texas thing. Sure makes me leary about going to the football games on Friday night. I'll just make sure I stand clear of any lights. UT'ing after galvanizing is not too much trouble as long as it's a CJP, but it's just that I've never found anything on the few PJP'S that required post galv UT. The thing about what's going on now is that I'm finding fatigue cracking on a large scale on both PJP/CJP's in the field.  Some of these poles have been erected 10 plus years.

Laredo
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 10-26-2009 00:35
I was just working as an outside inspector for a company that manufactured poles. one of therir workers came to visit from a shop in the midwest and said the cjp base plate welds were
getting toe cracks immediately after galvanizing  not ten years later they were repairing them at the galvanizers facility.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-26-2009 11:34
Hey Joe, How did those guys get the galvanizer to repair their stuff?....I'm all ears.

edit: BTW, I MT after galvanizing because many of the cracks are filled in with zinc and you can't see all of them with your eye.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-26-2009 15:51
The hot dip galvanizing process includes an acid pickling operation just prior to hot dipping in the molten galvanize. Acid is a hydrogen ion rich environment at temperature which means, wait for it..... yes! If there is any martensite in the HAZ of the weld, hydrogen which will diffuse into the HAZ will become a potential source for delayed hydrogen cracking.

Where with this cracking most likely occur? You guessed it, right along the toes of the weld and in the HAZ.

Which types of steels are most prone to forming martensite in the HAZ? Again, you're right, the high strength low alloy steels you would expect to be used for lighting masts.

The bottom line, even if low hydrogen practices are followed by the fabricator, insufficient preheat which can result in martensite in the HAZ can become a problem when the welds are subjected to hydrogen rich environments. It is for this reason that many welding specifications developed by the petrochemical industry include hardness limitations for the weld and HAZ. Those same precautions may be warranted when HDG is to follow welding.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Laredo (*) Date 10-27-2009 00:41
Thanks for that incite, I never looked at it from that angle.

Laredo
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 10-28-2009 14:58
I talked to one of the high mast pole manufacturers who was fairly well convinced the problem comes up when the ratio of base plate thickness to shaft thickness is particularly high.  They figured it had to do with thermal stresses in the galvanizing bath.  They find these cracks as soon as they go looking after galvanizing; they're not delayed.

The University of Texas is researching this issue, but I'm not sure exactly what aspects they're researching.

Hg
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-28-2009 15:29
I would expect the amount of diffusible hydrogen available to influence the time required for the hydrogen cracks to propagate to the point where they are detectable. So, in an environment that is hydrogen rich, i.e., the acid pickling bath, the potential for introducing diffusible hydrogen is relatively high.

Then the ratio of the thickness of the base plate versus the thickness of the mast would come into play as well. The thickness of the base plate would influence the potential for cracking in at least two ways. The first would be the increased in alloying constituents required to maintain the required mechanical properties. Thick plate experiences less mechanical work, i.e., the number of passes through the rolling mill for thicker material is less than for thin materials, thus there is less grain refinement for the thicker plates. The lesser amount of mechanical work required for thick plates would necessitate an increase in the amount of alloy required to produce the required tensile strength. The increased the alloy content would increase the carbon equivalency and the potential for hydrogen sensitivity and it lowers the ratio between tensile strength and yield strength, i.e., a low ratio of tensile strength to yield strength (approaching 1). That would mean there is little plastic deformation before failure, thus there is little opportunity for crack arrest. The second condition that results from a high ratio between the base plate thickness to mast wall thickness would result in increased rigidity and increased residual stresses because the residual stress cannot be easily redistributed by plastic deformation, i.e., distortion in the base plate. The magnitude of the residual stress increases the potential for cracking due in the presence of diffusible hydrogen.

There are times when it is beneficial to use lower strength steel (less alloying) and thicker is not always better. Contrary to the belief held by some designers, stronger is not always better.  

Best regards - Al
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 11-03-2009 23:51
the galvanizer didn't repair the cracks the fab shop sent a welder and inspector to the galvanizers facility
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 11-03-2009 23:52
the galvanizer didn't repair the cracks the fab shop sent a welder and inspector to the galvanizers facility
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-04-2009 12:31
Ah...OK, I was wondering, because we always had to fix all of that and straighten all the warpages when it came back to the shop, before being sent out to the jobsite. I thought if this was something new, I wanted to know how you got them to help you out like that...LOL
Parent - - By Laredo (*) Date 10-27-2009 00:37
Yes, as I mentioned the cjp welds require post galvanize UT inspection shortly after galvanizing. Depending on the geometry of the shaft (8,12,14,16 sided) as well as the ratio of the thickness of the shaft to baseplate, cracks are common.   The issue I'm seeing is appearing to me to be fatigue related. These light poles are deemed "static" and because of that the requirements are allot less stringent than if they were rated dynamic, and yet it's not uncommon to see them swaying in the wind. (Just imagine what they were doing during the recent hurricanes)

Thanks,
Laredo  
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-27-2009 03:24
I see the same problem with some of the "monopole" signs beside the interstates. I've seen a couple of them come down because of fatigue cracks.

Sooner or later someone will be killed and the lawyers will come out of the woodwork. So far we've been fortunate, I haven't heard of any fatalities.

AWS looks at 10 000 cycles as being the lower threshold for fatigue, so if the engineer assumes there are less than 10 000 cycles, static conditions are appropriate. However, I believe that is wishful thinking on the part of the "design professional" as well as the owner. Remember, the owner is the first person on the firing line when the civil actions start. Then the fabricator/erector, and then the designer are made party to the actions. Let’s not forget the inspector, even if he did his best, he is one of the targets as well.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 10-28-2009 15:53
But is it fatigue operating on an initial crack caused at the time of galvanizing, or no initial crack?  That makes a difference for stopping the problem.

The little cracks that come out of the galvanizing are easily missed (as someone else said, they're filled with zinc) and may not cause problems for many years.  But they will grow as fatigue cracks, and eventually...

Hg
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Toe cracks in post galvanized PJP welds?

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