Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / portable heating oven (quiver)
1 2 Previous Next  
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 14:42
Waccobird,
  The asswhoopin would only apply to the prank that results in me getting my hand burnt. As for the rest I am the same as you, the pen is mightier than the sword. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 15:17
John
Maybe you should refrain from touching the heated rod "quiver" at all....I would have asked the welder to open it and then I would have swiped the electrode holder end of one of those rods with a 250°F tempil stick and watched to see if it melted..... thus eliminating the tricky chance for blistered finger tips....LOL
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 15:45
This did not happen to me, but rest assured if it did it would only happen once as I tend to learn quickly when I get burnt LOL. When I had to check hot boxes I always shot them with an infrared temp gun. Of course this is not as dependable as a tempil stick but it was good enough to let me know if it was in the temp range and as long as it was calibrated it was legit. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-03-2009 18:06
Funny how that works.

I tell my students on day one.

Only two things will make me mad enough to yell.

1.   Hand me something hot without telling me

2.  Me grabbing hot metal out of the scrap bin.

Burn up grinders
smoke power supplies
ask for a new contact tip every hour.

those are fine
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 11-03-2009 18:24
I usually specify in my Test Booth Procedure something to the effect of ... "All items must be presented to the Inspector Bare Handed". I then informally let them know that if in doubt, would they be willing to put their tongue (or more sensitive body part) on it?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 18:26
Remember that old safety video from the early 70's "Shake Hands with Danger"?...there is a scene in there where a young office guy is visiting the shop and leans on the vice where the old fart(BTW it was not Henry) had just used the vice to hold something that he was heating with the torch....the old guy just sits back and watches the younger fella lean on that vice with his bare arm without warning him that it might be hot.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-02-2009 14:09
Bert,
  The way I read D1.1 if the "hot box" does not hold a temperature of 250 degrees then it would be considered a "quiver". I could very well be mistaken.

My experience was always this:  The welders were issued a hot box that has been checked to insure 250 degrees along with fresh electrodes out of the monitored oven. This hot box was then taken to the work site, be it out on the line or to the welding hutch, and plugged in to a power source. Then a few electrodes at a time were removed from the hot box and carried in the "quiver". These hot boxes had to be monitored the same as the oven and when not removing electrodes for use, the lid must be kept closed.

To answer your question, if it is capable of holding a temperature of 250 degrees then I would consider it a "hot box" if not then it is a "quiver" and should be used accordingly.

jrw159
Parent - - By bert lee (**) Date 11-02-2009 14:21
jrw159,

how do you find the site shared by 3.2? will you consider it as a quiver?  the storage temperature is less than 250deg (around 100°C). That is similar to my photo which i reffered as quiver.

bert
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-02-2009 15:19
Bert,
  I would consider this a "heated quiver" as it does not reach 250 degrees.

jrw159
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 02:37
Hi John!

Does anyone in here know the original definition of the word "Quiver???"  Anybody a Boy scout here??? It's case to store your arrows in, and usually made of bark, wood, leather, pelts and a combination of other natural materials... So, I guess that means we welders are a bunch of Archers who store their "arrows" in a Quiver!!! :) :) :) Our "Arrows' are Low hydrogen SMAW electrodes!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 02:50 Edited 11-03-2009 18:08
DING, DING!!!! I am still searching for the old definition of a quiver. It is basically a temporary holder for your "arrows".

However I may very well be in for an education and it would not be the first time. LOL :-)

Henry, I would equate Lo-Hyd "arrows" to poison arrows that need special attention in regards to use and storage.

Speel chek not done.

jrw159
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 03:09
Sounds Like a plan!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-03-2009 04:23
Psa 127:4  
As arrows  in the hand of a mighty man; so  children of the youth. 
Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they
shall speak with the enemies in the gate
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 11-03-2009 18:05
Law,
Are you saying that a man with children in his hand is happy?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-03-2009 18:51
Heh....

My children were rarely "in hand"

But by the grace of the good Lord, they have become impressive young men.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-03-2009 05:05
I read the word "quiver" and I immediately associated it with the word "foreplay". Sorry, my mind works in mysterious ways.

Al 
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 10-30-2009 16:46 Edited 11-01-2009 20:45
Thanks John I was wondering where I had read that.
Sincerely
Marshall
PS John is this one you mean, Leather electrode Quiver?
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-02-2009 13:41
That is it. I have seen a few different styles.

jrw159
Parent - By scrappywelds (***) Date 11-03-2009 00:24
every company I have worked for recently has made welders use the Heated portable ovens as the storage container for rods. They must be plugged in when not being transported, that even includeed while welding in any field conditions no matter where it was. I have had to tie my oven off with rope while I was erecting steel welding in out on the steel. Once it is made manditory everyone seems to conform or they got fired.
Parent - - By jarcher (**) Date 10-25-2009 14:45
A lots been said in this thread about employer's responsibilities, employee's responsibilities, codes and law suits and its all good as far as I can see. For your particular problem a good first step might be to make believers of management, have them tell the welders "No more rods in contact with your sweaty ass", and have them supply the welders regular leather rod quivers. I used to buy my own when I was welding. They can be attached to a belt loop and allow a welder to carry more rods than he could in his back pocket anyway. Then all you will have to worry about is getting them to change the rods out every couple of hours or so from the main oven if they haven't used them all. Portable ovens are great, I enthusiastically endorse using them, but they are difficult to use in some situations. Anyhow to parrot everybody else, Hydrogen Stress Induced Cracking can occur after all the UT's and RI's are done and it can have expensive repercussions.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 10-26-2009 10:15
"sweaty ass" :) Uhmm must be hot hot down there :) :)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-26-2009 15:53
Closely related to "crotch crock cooking" mentioned by Robin Williams in "Good Morning Vietnam!"

Best regards - Aal
Parent - By bert lee (**) Date 10-27-2009 04:07
my boss said he will impose "fine" for those welders who failed to use
quiver. thanks

bert
Parent - - By Atorroja Date 10-27-2009 08:08
  For years and years  welding inspectors live with this KARMA. May be more than the 50% of all the joints welded with E- XX18 around the world, were performed with cold electrodes. Not to much problems occur. This topic needs a revision?

ADOLFO

  
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 10-27-2009 09:45
Maybe we should also contact ESAB and the other electrode companys?
Would you mind if I write them a mail and refer to your post here?

Years and years of study needs to be revised.

3.2
Parent - - By Atorroja Date 10-27-2009 10:55
Only a question Inspector. How many changes, in codes, procedures, add, etc did you saw from the firts day you start working, years and years, until now?

ADOLFO
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 10-27-2009 11:23
Quite a few, with most changing to a more stringent criteria.
It makes sence to me, with more challenging materials and constructions, better inspection techniques most be applyed.

There is a thread here about arc strikes on cross country pipelines, many moons ago the material used for such pipelines was of a lower steel grade, with lower Ceq. now the materials has a higher Ceq. and arc strikes becomes an issue.

3.2
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-27-2009 17:21 Edited 10-27-2009 17:25
Designers are conservative for a reason. The equations used for design purposes are largely based on empirical data. Factors of safety are used to account for the "unknown" or "unforeseen" conditions such as bolt holes that are torch cut to accommodate hole misalignment, columns that aren't as plumb as they should be and welds that are not as large as they should be or undercut along the edges of the weld.

It is less expensive and safer to be conservative than to reduce the safety factor in most instances. The exception to the use of a large safety factor is in the aerospace industry where the cost of in-depth research and design is less expensive (than heavier aircraft) over the life time of the aircraft. However, to ensure the design requirements are fully implemented each component is subjected to rigorous inspection and quality control not seen in other industrial sectors.

There is a well established history of problems resulting from diffusible hydrogen in welds and other fabricated components such as cracking towers used in the petrochemical industry that offer hydrogen rich carbon rich  environments. Cracking and blistering in the petrochemical industry as a result of hydrogen diffusing into the lattice of the high strength low alloy steel is a well established phenomenon. There are steps that can be taken to mitigate those problems and they are enforced when the cost of failure cannot be tolerated.

Steel structures utilizing high strength low alloy steels are seeing expanded use because they lower overall cost by reducing the weight of the steel required, reduces the size and cost of the foundation as well as the cost of erection. The use of the higher strength steels allows the use of lighter members and in some cases the engineer uses fewer members so there is less redundancy, meaning if one member fails, there is no alternate load path to the foundation. The bottom line is that when a nonredundent member fails, the entire structure fails.

High strength low alloy steels are not as tolerant as the steels traditionally used in steel structures. The alloy content makes them more susceptible to delayed cold cracking than low carbon steel such as ASTM A36 or A53. Additional precautions are required to minimize the potential of developing a hard brittle heat affected zone and to minimize the potential for introducing diffusible hydrogen into the weld puddle where it can diffuse into the HAZ while it is austenized. To limit the diffusible hydrogen available in the weld or HAZ we use low hydrogen electrodes or select a welding process that is recognized as a low hydrogen welding process because they use bare electrode or an electrode flux that is protected from the environment, i.e., FCAW. Be aware that all FCAW electrodes are not created equal and if hydrogen is a concern, the welding engineer must be selective of which electrode classification is specified.

The bottom line is that we as welding professionals must be aware of what we can and what we cannot do to ensure the structures we fabricate and erect are safe for the intended service conditions and they do not pose a danger to the people using them or to the general public.

The professional will not gamble with other people’s lives or well being by taking short cuts.  “We’ve always done it that way” is not an acceptable reason for ignoring code requirements or the engineer’s instructions.

Times are changing. The materials we use to construct structures with are changing. Some of those materials are less fault tolerant and we have to understand how they behave and how they respond to welding and forming operations. What we did and how we did it does not mean we can continue to follow “old school methodology”. We have an opportunity to learn from the mistakes made in the past and we can learn from the failures that have occurred. It is our job, as professionals, be it as a welder, inspector, detailer, or engineer, to do our best to maintain our level of understanding of current requirements. As a welder, the task includes following the written instructions provided by our employers. If sufficient instructions are not provide, ask for the information that is needed.

I have nothing but distain for the welder or inspector that doesn’t take pride in their work or refuses to follow the instructions provided by the employer or the design professional. We expect the designers and the engineers to do their job in a conscientious manner. They have a right to expect the inspector and welder to do their part to follow the rules, regulations, codes, and work instructions as well.

The public expects the engineer, designer, inspector, and the welder to know how to do their jobs correctly. They pay for our services and they have a right to have the work done in a proper manner.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-28-2009 15:50
I agree just because codes were less stringent in the past or there's only a minimal chance of hydrogen cracking under these conditions, doesn't give the welders or anyone a fair pass to do what they want. In the past we didn't know that Asbestos was dangerous and it was used for many years without problems for the most part, that doesn't mean we should use it now.

oh and as far as the rods, why the welders wouldn't want to use quivers is beyond me. Everyone awesome throughout history had a quiver including Robinhood.

as far as electrodes go. Back in PA as soon as the rods were taken out of the oven (controlled by the tool crib guy) they were given a paint marking on the tail corresponding to the 1/2 hour.   The Inspector and QC knew what colors corresponded to what time, so it was very simple to know if you were welding past their out of oven time. Also you'd be pulled if caught doing it.  Simple and effective.
Parent - - By Atorroja Date 10-28-2009 17:30
Then for a 12 hours dayly job we need 24 differents colors? and next day 24 more?
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 10-28-2009 17:46
Hmmmm...
There must be some kind of logic to it.

The only time I have seen colors to be painted on the electrode is to indicate the number of re-bakes for each electrode.

3.2
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-28-2009 17:58 Edited 10-28-2009 18:02
colors repeated every day, if your doing a low hydrogen procedure people are handing back or scrapping the rods at the end of the day right? so rods shouldn't be kicking around the next day.

we never quite needed 24 colors. but we weren't set up on 12's.  Dark shade at the top of the hour,light shade at half-passed. 

once people got in the habit, they would look down and check their rods and  grab a new set before the time expired.

I must add that it doesn't have to be done with markers on the rods, We had fabbed up rod holding cups that we simply stuck a sticker on, or wrote on the time they were taken out of the oven.

no need to go overboard, but some simple markings can go along way to know what time you took them out of the oven.
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 10-28-2009 18:27
I may be an A%$ but I have them return the stubs or the electrodes within 4 hours and my written procedure also only allows for 10 electrodes at a time. This can be modified if the person welding is running rod after rod but as we mainly use FCAW it satisfies the auditors.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-28-2009 19:43
I've had to weld under similar rules, but we were allowed more rods.

My quesiton is how do you keep track of when the electrodes were taken out?
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 10-28-2009 20:23 Edited 10-28-2009 20:25
I have a lock on the oven and a log hanging on the wall.
The oven holds the only electrodes in the facility that are not in a hermetically sealed container.
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 10-29-2009 00:02
I take it then you have more than one oven? One for fresh rods out of the sealed containers and one for rebake at the higher temps.for a period of time? Where I work we only have a couple of 10 lb. ovens and one large oven, so we don't rebake. I bend all rods I find out for any lenght of time and throw them in the stub barrel. Ofcourse the client pays for all consumables.
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 10-29-2009 10:11
No just the one oven.
We use E70T-1 FCAW  for all Structural, We use GMAW for Hand Rails.
The only reason for having the oven is demonstrating to the auditor the procedure for storage and control.
If you say we don't use Stick electrodes they say what about the instance when a gun is not able to access a weld location.
Easiest way of avoiding the question is maintaining the oven and electrodes.
So I only need one oven at this time.
I too will not rebake an electrode and it is on my procedure that way. I too also deform the electrode ruining the flux.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / portable heating oven (quiver)
1 2 Previous Next  

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill