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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / fillet weld length
- - By tbigtdav (*) Date 10-29-2009 01:40
First of all this may be a silly question. I am on a project and on several drawings it calls for lets say a 5" long fillet weld. Unable to get a solid answer from colleagues i decided to go to the forum with it. Im hearing several different things concerning this and cannot find anything in D1.1 to back up things that i am hearing unless i misread or overlooked something. I am being told that if there is a weld length on the drawing then that is the minimum length required. If that is the case then whats the maximum length and also why didnt the detailer just put the weld symbol and size telling me that it is full length. Subsequently by extending the weld length past what is noted on the drawing the weld is terminating in the k-area of a beam. Any input from you guys would be extremely helpfull, and thank you all in advance for helping to clear up this matter.
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 10-29-2009 09:54
tbigtdav
Not such a silly question.
I am not around the code as I am feeding my bird and getting ready for work.
The weld symbol on the drawings should have been approved in the Approval process of the E.O.R. of the project.
Rule of thumb tells me it is his neck on the line and if the Detailer indicated that there is a lets say 5" weld then that is what is needed.
Depending on the placement of the weld and the function of the part, more could be just as detrimental as too little.
Thanks for the question when I get to the office I will see about backing up my rule of thumb.
Hope this helps more than hurts.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2009 09:58
2008 D1.1 See commentary C5.14

A bit of advice, many times you can save yourself a lot of grief by simply reading the commentary with relevant paragraphs of the code.
If your looking for the intent of a particular paragraph, the intent is usually found in the commentary. It is 'non-mandatory', but does clarify the mandatory elements of D1.1.
Also suggest you read the forward section of the commentary.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 10-29-2009 11:58
5.14 deals with Minimum Fillet Weld sizes.
Not Length
But 5.13 Conformance with Design states that the sizes and lengths of welds shall be no less than specified by the design requirements and detail drawings except as allowed in Table 6.1. The Location of welds shall not be changed without approval of the Engineer.
Respectfully
Marshall
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2009 15:54
Sue me for a typo
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 10-29-2009 16:30
Gerald
I don't care to sue  but thanks for the suggestion.
I guess it depends on your frame of reference.
"A bit of advice, many times you can save yourself a lot of grief by simply reading the commentary with relevant paragraphs of the code."
I just mentioned that because you said relevant and the path you suggested was not relevant Poster was asking of Length not size.
Respectfully
Marshall
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 10-29-2009 16:51
5.13 and 5.14 are pretty close on the keyboard, especially for my meat hook paws. It's what I get for not checking it before posting.
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 10-29-2009 11:42 Edited 10-29-2009 11:49
tbigtdav
I checked the code and it doesn't say anything really except in 2.2.4 which is the weld design section it tells me the Engineer will include this information on the contract documents.
When I go to AWS A2.4 Standard symbols for welding 5.3 Length of Fillet Welds it says that if the length is full length it doesn't have to be specified and then it says that if a length is specified it can be shown by length in the symbol and/or actual dimension lines indicating it length and location.
But I ask you this. Being in Business generally requires making a profit. Why would a welder spend more time and consumables on a task than the Engineer specified, thus decreasing from the profit.
Have a Great day
PS I almost forgot if there is a legitimate concern always send in a Request For Information to the Engineer of Record. 
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-29-2009 12:43
See AWS D1.1:2008
para(s) 2.3.2.3 (min length shall be at least 4 times the nominal size)
2.3.2.4 (min lengths of intermittant fillets shall be 1.5")
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-29-2009 13:05
Most welders take pride in their work. They hate to have welds rejected because they are undersized or too short, so they increase the size slightly and make the welds a little longer than required as insurance that the welding inspector won't reject the welds.

Welders that carry the practice to the extreme are not doing anyone f favor by making the welds much longer or much large than what is specified by the drawing. That's where proper training comes into play. Doubling the size of a fillet weld increases the cost by a factor of four. That definitely cuts into the employer's profits.

Some inspectors will also be the driving force behind the welders for making the welds larger and longer than what is specified. They too need to be trained to properly inspect the welds and recognize that their actions can adversely affect the profitability of their employers. Some inspectors reject the work of some welders because the "know the welder can do better!" Horse feathers! Does the weld meet the requirements of the drawing and applicable welding standard or not. That is the question that needs to be answered. It isn't a question of whether the welder can do better or not.

Welding symbols that are incomplete or simply wrong can also lead to the welder making decisions that shouldn't be his to make. The inspector should send drawings that are incomplete or wrong back to the designer. Eventually they will get the message that they need to clean up their act.

Welding symbols can be very explicate and they can indicate exactly where the weld placement is. However, they can specify a 5 inch weld length along a 10 inch joint and leave the exact placement to the welder. Likewise, a drawing that doesn’t specify the weld size can often result in oversized or undersized welds. A general note is often overlooked by the welder.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 10-29-2009 13:26
It sounds like you are welding a part to the web of a beam.
Technically, you are not supposed to weld in the "K-area".  This is different than the "K" which is the raduis,  The "K-area" is the zone that extends from the edge of the "K" for about 1 1/2" but check that, I don't have my book in front of me.
Now, let's say the piece to be welded is 10" long, but the drawing only calls for 5", then normally unless it's shown specifically on the drawing, the weld is put in the center of the piece.  This would leave 2 1/2" unwelded on either side, and that might be your "k-area" zone and that's why it was called out that way.
Generally, most detailers aren't aware of the whole "k-area" issue and therefore don't know to not weld in that area.  When that happens on my projects, as long as the drawings are approved, then the engineer should have picked up on it and either he doesn't know, or it doesn't matter.  As long as the drawings are approved, do what they say, and you should be ok.
Hope this helps.
Chris
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 10-29-2009 13:28
Also don't forget there is AWS 2.4 STandard for Weldinf Symbols and NDT testing.  This is a great book to use for referance.  I'm in it all the time and it really helps to show/ train people when a disagreement comes up. It has lots of illustrations and examples.
Parent - By swnorris (****) Date 10-29-2009 16:20
"I am being told that if there is a weld length on the drawing then that is the minimum length required".

If 5" of weld is shown on the drawing, and the member to be welded is longer than 5", that indicates to me that the 5" is the minimum length of fillet weld required for that specific connection.  Unless this results is a code violation, weld 5".  Don't let someone talk you into adding additional labor that's not necessary.

The K area could be an issue, as indicated by Chris.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-29-2009 19:41
Al mentions above:

"Doubling the size of a fillet weld increases the cost by a factor of four. That definitely cuts into the employer's profits. "

Here is a representation from the AWS CWS Manual that provides a really good illustration of just what Al is talking about.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-29-2009 21:23
about one year back I posted a welding calculator that would do the math for you in terms of deposition.  I also posted a welding cost calculator in there that had took into account welded length and Labor and overhead.  My first welding engineering job was reviewing hundreds of weldment prints and reducing over welding.  On some projects I ended up cutting out over 100 feet of welds!

now in terms of the question asked  if the weld length is called out at 5" the weld should be 5"    don't have a copy of d1.1 in here but there are certain allowables in terms of fit up error and then welding error in terms of length both + and -  but usually you don't strive to use those tolerances and just weld to length given.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 10-30-2009 12:12
Here is an illustration I use in class for doubling the size of a 1/4" fillet weld.
Attachment: filletsize.jpg (19k)
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 10-30-2009 17:33
If it happens too often, I illustrate it through welder termination and replacement.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-02-2009 12:16
LOL, that "illustration" works every time!!  :-)
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / fillet weld length

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