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Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / Help determining weldability of existing steel
- - By draftingman Date 11-02-2009 21:52
We are currently working on a federal building in downtown Manhattan, NY. We are installing support steel and we need to weld to the existing. Since the building was constructed in the early 1930's there was really no ASTM designation for the steel. As a result, we were asked to do a chemical analysis on the existing steel. Even after we received the chemical analysis we are still having a hard time figuring out what welding electrode to us and whether or not pre-heat is required. Below the chemical analysis of the existing steel. All are percentages;
Carbon .14, Phosphorus .003, Aluminum <.01, Copper .12, Nickel .05, Manganese .58, Sulfur .026, Chromium .06, Molybdenum <.01, Vanadium <.01

Can anyone help us determine an ASTM designation or the correct welding electrode and pre-heat requirements. New steel is A992
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-03-2009 11:53
That's definetely a low carbon steel. I don't have the ASTM book at hand right now, but I'd say (and confirm it later) that its composition falls into the range of A 285 Gr B. Chromium, nickel, molybdenum and vanadium percentages are so low that they don't have any influence on the steel behavior. So, figure out your weld as being an A 992 steel that is to be welded to a low carbon one.  
Having cleared up this point, my main concern now is the condition of the old structural steel. Is it clean and sound enough to weld on it? Or is it rusty, painted, greasy, dirty and so on? My suggestion is to carry on an inspection on the old steel and make sure that it is good enough to support welding.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil 
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-03-2009 19:49 Edited 11-03-2009 19:52
I've taken a look at A 283 and A 285 and yes, the chemical composition of your old steel fits into A 283 Gr B and A 285 Gr B.

A 283 Gr B.
Carbon 0.17% max, Manganese 0.90% max, Phosphorus 0.04% max, Sulphur 0.05%max, Silicon 0.40% max.
A 285 Gr B.
Carbon 0.17% max, Manganese 0.98% max. Phosphorus, sulphur and silicon are not stated.

Therefore, I stick to what I've said on my previous posting: figure out your WPS as being an A 992 steel to a low carbon one.
Now, take a look at what Al (803056) said on his posting that you can find following the link Lawrence has below: steels from the 30's were riveted or bolted, not welded, so the main concern was their mechanical strength, not chemical composition. Therefore, the composition of one heat could be quite different from the composition of the following heat. There's little doubt (no doubt at all, I'd say) that the structural members used in a building belonged to different heats, so that one beam is easy to make a weld on but the adjacent column is difficult to make a weld. Read Al's comment and take your own conclusions. 
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-03-2009 15:36 Edited 11-03-2009 17:19
Welcome to the forum Draftingman!

A question similar to yours was asked in the forum a while back:
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=157749;hl=old%20steel

Al, Jeff and Hg all put in good data
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 11-04-2009 04:53
Probably was made to ASTM A7, which no longer exists.  It is a weldable mild steel though, similar to A36.  C <0.30 is good, definitely weldable.  P and S is also fairly low, definitely not high enough to be of any concern for welding. Al, Cu, Ni, Cr, Mo and V are only trace amounts and not intentional additions.  No Si, so this is a C-Mn steel.

E7018 would be the correct electrode choice.  For preheat, treat as a Group II material under D1.1 to be conservative and you should have no problems.

http://web.mit.edu/1.51/www/pdf/chemical.pdf
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-04-2009 16:43 Edited 11-04-2009 16:47
I have to agree with you Marty!

Back in the early Nineties while working as a field erection supervisor, quite a few of the buildings on Park Avenue were found to have the same type of steel you're talking about, and I also remember vaguely that the steel was made to ASTM A7 as well as it was no longer being an existing standard also. We also welded it to A-36 with no problems as well with an E-7018 H4 electrode as well... I never heard of any problems with those welds afterwards either!!! ;)

Most of the structural rehabilitation work was performed on the mid to upper floors of these multiple story buildings and most of the problems were found to be towards the columns around the corners of the buildings due to erosion of the brickwork cement joints which caused water to corrode the structural steel in an accelerated manner... These buildings were also built in the late nineteen twenties - early thirties and we worked on 5 or 6 of them if I remember correctly.

I also remember that they were considered luxury hi-rises back then, and the tenants/apartment owners who had to be temporarily displaced because of the required work, were sent on 2-3 month cruises on those huge luxury ships of the line with first class accomodations which were a pretty good deal considering that they had to stay away from their residences until all of the work was completed!!! ;) Lots of tricky "Iron work" was performed in order to rehabilitate those buildings and they're doing really well today ever since according to an operating engineer friend I have in New York city who psses by there on a daily basis during his travels throughout the city going to and from job assignments.

Draftingman! Once again, "Weldcome" to the World's Greatest Welding Forum!!! Now I don't know what your set up is like and I'm not going to speculate either but, do you have structural engineer working with you that is familiar with the older buildings in NYC??? Because if you don't, it may be a good idea to consult with one that is, because their knowledge is unique with the older buildings in the City, and there are many that are not hard to get in touch with, because most of their knowledge has been passed on to the newer generation of some of the structural engineers who reside on most of the current projects going on in the Big Apple believe it or not!

And the Dept of Buildings inspection department still do have access to a bunch of many of the original plan drawings with some details on the steels used in the general notes or the bill of materials as well, and some even have the original contract documents with all of the necessary information, but you're going to have to assign someone there for probably a day or two, spend no more than $100.00 to retrieve all of the necessary information for the building you're working on whether it be a Federal building or not, so you might want to consider that route also, if you do find yourself having a hard time tracking down a structural engineer familiar with the older buildings in the city.

Respectfully,
Henry 
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-07-2009 20:16
I use the carbon equivalency formula found in the Annex of AWS D1.1 to determine the weldability of unknown steels based on their chemistry. The values for preheat are concervative, but then I am of the mind that conservative is good insurance against the unknown.

Using E7018-H4 electrode you can assume you meet the H2 criteria if you are using an electrode oven to store your electrodes.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Len Andersen (***) Date 11-09-2009 18:30
Ladies and Gentlemen,
      I am a Construction Project Manager for the New York City Department of Transportation (NYCDOT) Division of Bridges. The welding guy. I am the only Engineer Dockbuilder Local Union 1456 (Nature of Employers Business - Heavy Construction Civil Engineering Construction Work), CWI (AWS - Certified Welding Inspector) graduate engineer with five patents in welding, two in petroleum recovery, one in lubrication that New York City employs. Play with A7 and older "steel". The New York State Steel Construction Manual

https://www.nysdot.gov/divisions/engineering/structures/manuals/scm

is the reference I have used. It calls for preheat of 250 degrees Fahrenheit. Chasing to make sure it happens is good idea!
Hope this is helpful.
                              Sincerely
                                Len Andersen
http://www.ndt.net/wshop/profile/profile.php?id=4694
                                 
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 11-09-2009 18:38
I am Lord Voldemort.

+66 6666-666 is my direct line.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-09-2009 22:28 Edited 11-09-2009 22:32
Mr. Andersen,
The link you have put on your message leads to a gold mine. Imagine: none less than the New York State Steel Construction Manual, for free!. Thankyou very much, Sir, you have rendered a wonderful service to us engineers frequentors of this site.
I'm a Professor at Mackenzie Presbyterian University in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and will recommend the professor of Structural Steel Calculations to download the Manual.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
P.S. 1. Don't bother to Inspector 3.2's jokes, he has a particular sense of humor and likes to tell jokes all the time on his postings, but he is a harmless good guy. Everybody of us like him.
P.S. 2. Henry, you also have posted golden links on your postings, for example those leading to Sarcos's Manuals on the Metallurgy section of this Forum.
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 11-10-2009 17:54
Prof. Crisi, you might find it interesting that the NY SCM is the basis for AWS D1.5.  It was Warren Alexander from NY who was the main contributor to the first edition of D1.5.

Hg
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 11-10-2009 17:51
Note that the 250F in the NY SCM is sort of a default preheat for field welding if your steel is not listed in their preheat table.  You'd still need to take steps to verify that your historic steel is indeed considered weldable.

Hg
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 11-11-2009 00:12
Back to the original post, doesn't D1.1 mention something about how to determine and what to do the existing structures?? It's towards the back like chapter 11 or something I'm home now.
The lab that ran the tstes for the material can't help you either?

Chris
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 11-11-2009 14:21
Good point.  Chapter 8 is "Strengthening and Repair of Existing Structures".  Short, but some good stuff.

Hg
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-11-2009 19:08
I believe Ross posted something a few days back about a new standard.. Oh yes! Here it is:

"FYI, AWS recently released a new standard, "D1.7/D1.7M:2010, Guide for Strengthening and Repairing Existing Structures."

It provides engineers and contractors with general direction and guidance on weld repairs, weld strengthening, and other procedures to correct problematic issues with existing structures made of steel (minimum yield strength of 100 ksi and minimum thickness of 1⁄8 inch), cast iron, and wrought iron.

It's useful to the engineer who is obligated under D1.1 Clause 8 to plan for projects that involve strengthening and repairing. Preview it at https://www.awspubs.com/download/previews/D1.7PV.pdf

Thought some of you would be interested in this news.

Ross
AWS Marketing"

Here's the link to the OP:

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=168774;hl=

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-16-2009 13:26
Hello from FabTech!

It's opening day at the Welding Show here in Chicago. I plan to attend a session on weld cracking. I'm looking forward to it.

On the subject of A7 steel; be aware that the specification did not control carbon, phosphorus, or sulfur. Each has a negative influence on the weldability of steel. The specification was developed with bolting and riveting in mind. Weldability was not an issue at the time, only the minimum tensile strength and yield strength were controlled. Be aware that the chemistry from one member to another can vary and does vary. Welding on primary members subject to tension or fatigue warrants chemical testing to ensure weldability. Secondary members and bracing may not warrant chemical analysis, but it would be wise to perform a simple fillet break test to evaluate the easy of welding without developing hardened HAZ or cracking issues due to excess amounts of phosphorus and sulfur.

Sorry for the late response, but I notice this reply didn’t get posted while I was struggling with my computer a few days ago.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / Help determining weldability of existing steel

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