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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / overhead
- - By atramsdell (*) Date 11-03-2009 15:11
why can't i make a straight bead when trying to build up an overhead pad? i'm working on using both hands equally but, not sure if i'm positioning my body the right way. should i weld towards myself, away from myself or side to side any pointers would help.
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 11-03-2009 16:24
Personally I try to weld towards myself when possible.
Don't weld much anymore, but that was my way.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 11-03-2009 16:46
I've always felt that Overhead is just the same as Flat, only upsidedown. This applies to amperage, electrode leading angle, etc. when under "ideal conditions".
With that being said, in the Flat position I weld Left to Right (since I'm right handed) not towards or away from myself and affords me the best view of the puddle and resulting bead size and shape. I also tend to stand to the right side of my welding. By doing the same overhead, the sparks are directed away from me and makes me a happy Overhead welder. Of course accesssibility and other factors may require adjustments.
Everyone's different...
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 11-03-2009 22:05
I found that I tended to want to curve my bead a bit when welding overhead.

Welding straight towards me or straight sideways seemed to help in terms of keeping my positioning the same. You don't mention the process but I sounds like stick welding since your building up pads. I also found it help to brace my arms against something.
Parent - By up-ten (***) Date 11-03-2009 22:31
Yep,towards you.
Parent - - By atramsdell (*) Date 11-04-2009 02:05
it is stick. i'm just wondering what is comfortable for most as far as body positioning and direction of travel. i dont feel very comfortable in this position and my beads curve. eventually i'll figure out wich technique is best for me. when i am doing a open v groove test overhead i want to know if i am allowed to position the coupon any direction, towards me or left to right, i know it has to stay once test starts
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 11-04-2009 10:52
Just overhead and once welding starts do not move till finished any orientation to welder.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 11-04-2009 16:21 Edited 11-04-2009 16:29
atramsdell,
" i'm working on using both hands equally "
Copied this from your OP and would suggest that you gain competency in your dominant hand before attempting ambidexterity. This might help to prevent development of poor technique transfered from one hand to the other.
You also state that your beads are curving. Might help to draw a soapstone line, grind a score line (even out the bead), or scribe mark to follow. Eventually this will be corrected as visual acuity improves with practice.
P/W is not just a learning technique either. It is used in a variety of repair proceedures in Boiler tubes and Earthmoving machinery to name a couple. Another thing when pad welding, is the use of partial beads (not full length of the area being welded.) to fill in low spots, straighten, smooth out and make the final layer consistent.
Bead placement and planning is what it is all about whether single or multi-pass welding.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-07-2009 06:03
I tested on 1" plate and agree with superflux. Stacking multiple welds and having them come out flush and even at the top is a learning experience in itself. Speed up here for the high spot, slow down for the low. I went left to right on my overhead and pretty much positioned myself directly underneath the plate, I mean dead under it, spatter and stuff tore up my hood but it's a $30 jackson and still going strong, just leathered up for that though! Also agree with the flat but upside down comment. I used the same heat, very little rod angle as I would have done on a flat plate. 3G was worse than overhead in my opinion.
Parent - - By mightymoe (**) Date 11-07-2009 19:11
First stringer weld right on the edge of the plate, follow the edge and it should be straight. follow last bead and you should keep straight. If your curving off then you need to position your self so that you can see where your going. I like to use my right hand to hold stinger and my left to steady my right. I rest my right hand on top of my left index finger. By starting with my wrist and fingers curled in, extending them as I weld, I have good control thru the whole weld.
Before striking an arc, go thru the motion of welding the stringer bead. Make sure you can progress from beginning to end in a smooth motion. Get comfortable.
Parent - - By atramsdell (*) Date 11-07-2009 19:56
thats what i was lookin for thats moe, so your a pipe welder... i had a qualification post just now that you might be able to answer
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 11-10-2009 02:26 Edited 11-10-2009 08:15
Hello atramsdell, I'm a little bit late to post on this one, yet I believe I can possibly give you some additional food for thought. All of the other folks who've replied have given you a great number of different and very applicable options and approaches to better your overhead welding skills. Since welding isn't one size fits all, you now have a host of different approaches to consider.... that's a good thing. I'd like to add a few items as well. Surface tension comes into play a lot in the overhead welding position, especially when we're talking about E7018 electrodes. If you possibly aren't familiar with the term I'll give you an example of how I interpret this phenomenon: a drop of water on a glass table top, you put your finger into it and it adheres to the end of your finger to a certain degree as long as you don't raise your finger back up too far or quickly and it also follows your finger around the surface of the glass to some degree if you don't move it too quickly. If you do raise up too far it will disconnect and splash back onto the glass surface, a weld puddle can do something similar. With the overhead bead, varying the arc length too much or too quickly or changing the travel speed in a similar fashion can cause the arc to "disconnect" and the puddle to slide rearward towards the already deposited weld metal and since we're talking overhead here this will likely result in a "sag", at this point the weld will reconstitute itself but in a slightly narrower and shallower form. If an individual continues to weld without taking care of the arc length/travel speed issues the resulting weld deposits will be very uneven and have many highs and lows. If you are filling a groove this can cause extreme frustration when you try to speedup/slowdown to compensate for the uneveness while filling the rest of the groove/fillet. I often times find additional issues with "arc blow" and it's effect on the weld puddle in the overhead position. If you are running the bead across the plate/groove/joint and you start to see the arc "blowing" and possibly exiting out the rear of the rod along with irregularly sized spatter as you progress forward, that may be an indicator of this condition. Besides the general grounding approach changes and other things to minimize this condition I will generally start with a slight backhand(dragging) angle and then progress to a forehand(push) angle to help to deal with this condition. Another item I try to pay attention to is the "Lay" of the joint, whenever possible I try to start my weld on the low end of the joint and progress towards the higher end, this is certainly not always possible so in many cases you just have to deal with a downward slope, if you do have the option, then I suggest moving from low to high. The reason for this has to do with the flux/slag that is a part of the E7018 rods and many others. If it is allowed to get out in front of the arc it will cause the arc to sputter, the toes of the weld deposit to form in-correctly, and very likely allow entrapment of slag in many cases. When being forced to weld in a somewhat downward progression an increased backhand angle along with possibly increasing the amperage may help to minimize the slag entrapment issues and bead formation problems. An additional comment that I have deals with arc length, from my personal perspective there is going to be a "sweet spot" that will allow the arc to spread correctly and form the bead optimally. Too short of an arc length and it either sticks or litterally stirs the weld pool and makes for an uneven weld deposit. Too long of an arc length and you possibly suffer porosity in the weld bead or such a mis-directed arc, as it dances around on the end of the rod, that it makes an even weld bead next to impossible. When you get the arc length right you will generally end up with a smooth/even bead that goes where you put it and has very nicely tied in toes and the correct width to height ratio. Others mentioned heat settings, I generally agree that I use a setting similar to that required by welding in the flat position. Having said that I would like to throw another consideration out there for you to think about. When the heat is too low it won't matter what sort of rod angle, arc length, or to some degree travel speed you are using, your bead will end up being humped up, possibly narrow, and not making the profile you are looking for. Some of this can be due to a lack of energy that prevents the bead from spreading correctly. Too much heat and the bead is so hot that it will remain fluid too long and migrate towards it's center creating a sag in the middle of the bead and possibly exhibiting undercut along the edges as well. When you get the heat right, along with the other considerations, you will be able to run a bead that isn't all that different from one run in the flat position. One final tidbit here, material condition will have a lot to do with the success of your welding efforts. If you are welding on materials that have a lot of rust, millscale, oil, grease, dirt, etc., all of these items can have a detrimental effect on a weld. Even though there are plenty of times when we might not be allowed to properly prepare our welds, if you have the option to do so it will do you worlds of good to take that additional bit of time. Good luck on your practice and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By JMCInc (**) Date 11-12-2009 17:22
Can you see where you're going? When tig welding I have to wear a pair of "pappy" glasses. Puddle control is everything, and Allan pretty much described how to control it!
Parent - - By atramsdell (*) Date 11-13-2009 01:47
at first i couldnt see where i was going very well i may just not have been putting my head were it should be. i was building a pad with the plate straight in front of me and going from left to right. (i think i also had the plate too low) the first bead was closest to me then i was adding beads away,I don't think that was a good idea. maybe  i just wasnt watching what i was doing because today stuck my head right under there and i stood in front of the plate but more under it with my feet spread way out putting most weight on my right foot  leaning to the right and lookining down the beads and pulling the rod back towards my right with my right hand. i think i just need to put my  face right in there and watch what i'm doing. the way i was standing today(if you understood it) seemed comfortable and i could make a straight bead so i'm gonna work with that, i just gotta get closer to see whats happening. now i gotta get a more consistant speed going
Parent - - By atramsdell (*) Date 11-13-2009 01:49
so yea... i think i just have a problem with being too far away to see anything. trying not to get frustrated
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 11-13-2009 13:29
Welding is not a spectator sport; you gotta get all the way in.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-13-2009 15:25
Ron....  That really sums it all up!

I see books and lessons all the time that caution welders to keep their hoods 12-18 inches from the arc..   Well thats nice if you are an expert at reading the puddle...  But when your learning, sometimes you need to put your face a little closer to the action so you can see what's happening in the puddle.

So learners may want to get a bit closer.. But also keep a few things in mind.

1.   Do everything you can to get comfortable... don't be afraid put a clamp or a vice grip near your work to get a balence point..  Things will get hard soon enough.. Make it easy while your learning to read the puddle.

2.  If you do get a little closer to the arc than is recommended, make sure the smoke is going away from your breathing zone.... Manipulate your environment to keep the fume plume away.

3.  Getting closer the weld will smoke out your cover plate more quickly.. especially if it is a plastic one...  Cover plates are cheap.. get packs of them and change them when they get unclear..  Sometimes you forget to do this and things get more and more frusterating... a clean lens can make a huge difference.. Again something beginners often forget.

*Soap Box* :::::  Many new welding learners are talked into buying fancy new lightweight auto-dark hoods..  They are awsome for cutting the learning curve..  But::::: Many of the fancy ultra-light ones with Eagles and Flags and Pretty girls painted on them are not rated for overhead welding....  So always look inside the hood to make sure there is no use limitation...  So get the auto-hood if you want.. Just make sure it is one that will hold up to everything your training will throw at you.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 11-13-2009 17:47
Hi Larwence,

Most folks have no idea how limited your field of vision is under the hood until they try it.

My self not being gifted with a rock steady hand have to compensate however I can.

I even do things like practice (dry run / no ground) with the rod in the stinger to make sure I have enough range of movement to complete a pass.

I use the sensitivity of our work (no arc burns on finished machined parts) to justify 3M Speed glass hoods for all my welders and they do help a lot but I'd have get 2x4 and beat them to get'em do overhead (spoiled brats), they call me PA and every time I tell one of them to do something they others holler “Don’t beat ‘m Pa”.
Parent - By atramsdell (*) Date 11-14-2009 04:55
i gotta high quality miller helmet but i should probably replace the lenses i guess. one day of arc gouging did a lot of damage but i thought it was good still. another little thing about hoods is: sometimes it gets really foggy, is this just cause i'm sweating my balls off?. and every once in a while i catch myself looking at my reflection in the lense instead of looking through it.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 11-13-2009 10:27
Congratulations atramsdell! You've found the solution...
"the first bead was closest to me then i was adding beads away,I don't think that was a good idea."
I love it when the answer is answered...
Sometimes, we are smarter than we think we are!
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 11-12-2009 20:18
.
Parent - By strother (***) Date 11-14-2009 02:33
2 things a welding instructor told me 20yrs ago and I still have to remind myself grip the stinger loosely just tight enough to keep it from falling out of your hand and when welding overhead don't weld directly toward you you can't judge travel speed that way . position yourself under and to one side, and get comfortable ! Ithink thats more 2 things but I hope it helps you.
Parent - By atramsdell (*) Date 11-14-2009 04:58
common statement in class:  "you cant be scared" (not that i am) confidence is a big part of it i think
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / overhead

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