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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / AWS Learning & Education / SUNY Delhi or SUNY Alfred Welding Course for a teenager?
- - By alarmclock Date 11-20-2009 23:32
Greetings.

My son wants to be a welder.  I'm wondering what people think of SUNY colleges as a start?  He has some BOCES Welding from high school.
I wasn't too impressed with what I saw at SUNY.  I'm a former welder and they seem to be teaching old and obsolete stuff like gas welding and brazing, stuff I was taught in the 1970's.  I know it's still used on occassion but the instructors, while real nice guys, were very.. well how to say this----OLD.  They were 65 years old or even older and have not worked in the field since the mid 1980's.  These guys knew welding but the lack of modern equipment was a warning sign to me.  the shop looked like a time capsul from the 1970's.   The emphasis on gas welding was huge!   I wasn't too impressed with the school, not to mention the cost.  They do offer an Associates Degree in Welding Technology but the cost is huge compared to what they learn.  The weld shop I toured was pretty beat up for a SUNY college.  Real old welding machines, clutter, mess, piles of crap, etc.  I'm wondering if anyone can suggest an alternative?  My son wants to go here as there are girls all over the place on campus (not so much in the welding class).  I want him to try and get into a union apprenticeship or go to Hobart or Lincoln maybe?  Can anyone help me out on this?  Thanks
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-21-2009 03:46 Edited 11-21-2009 07:02
[deleted]
Parent - - By alarmclock Date 11-22-2009 00:08 Edited 11-22-2009 00:48
WOW!  Thanks for the reply! 

I wasn't too impressed with SUNY Delhi.  It really was a mess, the shop that is.  Junk piled everywhere, sloppy looking shop, things held together with tape and lots of homemade stuff used for you name it.  Very crowded also becuase of all the junk.  No excuse for this and this goes not to the top at SUNY but the old timers running the program.  The place really was a mess. These guys were SOOOOOOOOOOOOO laid back.  I think they were in retirement mode and really liked to promote themselves more than the program.  I was not impressed.  My son loved the the place though.

You say these two old timers running the place were working in QA/QC??  Where?  It couldn't be local as there's little in the way of manufacturing around Delhi. I was told that neither of the Delhi welding teachers were CWI's.  I was also told that one instructor has not worked in the field for over two decades.  Lots has changed since then.  Who are these SUNY guys advising in the "well attended groups?"  I hope they are not promoting gas welding or using 1/8" E7018 rod on sheet metal (yes that's what they use to save money on steel) or how to make 5P (6010) rod look pretty as that is very important (laugh!).  This is what I saw being taught.  MIG welding was a tiny area.  Gas welding booths took up around 20% of the total area of the shop.  I'm NOT kidding.  I couldn't believe it. 

What do you think of a union apprentice program with the pipefitters for my son?  It's free, four years long and they train in more than just welding plus you get paid while you work and even the apprentice rate is pretty good.  Other trades I have my son looking into are the ironworkers, boilermakers and sheetmetal workers.  They all have apprentice programs but I think the pipefitters would be the most versatile.  what do you think?  How would these compare with an AOS in Welding from SUNY?  Do you think one of the Lincoln or Hobart schools is worth the money??  My kid just wants to be a welder and make the "big bucks".  It's possible but I think pipe trades is where that money would be, not the stuff these old timers are teaching at SUNY.  Thanks again!  

EDIT:  I just found this after you mentioned your assault with a piece of metal to the face.  I did see several ARMED guards at SUNY Delhi.  The location is so rural you'd never expect this stuff:

http://www.wbng.com/news/local/18493254.html

May 2, 2008

Stabbed SUNY Delhi student Tyshawn Bierria dies

DELHI _ The student who was stabbed Sunday morning on the SUNY Delhi campus died during the night.

Tyshawn Bierria suffered multiple stab wounds and had been in critical condition at Mary Imogene Bassett Hospital in Cooperstown since the assault.

Police have arrested four people in connection with the stabbing and more arrests are pending. The men had all been charged with first-degree gang assault, a class B felony, and one count of second-degree attempted murder, a class B felony.

Delaware County District Attorney Richard Northrup convened a grand jury Friday morning. It was not immediately known when or if the charges will be upgraded to murder.

Jack Daniel Boampong, 19, of New York City, a SUNY Delhi student, was arrested Wednesday.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-22-2009 00:59 Edited 11-22-2009 01:01
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Parent - - By alarmclock Date 11-22-2009 01:57
Sorry about the Delhi confusion.  I actually thought the Alfred program was better but my son lives closer to NYC.  Do you have any opinion on apprenctice programs or maybe the Lincoln or Hobart courses?  My kid just wants to learn modern welding techniques.  I don't want him wasting time on gas welding and brazing at SUNY.  I can teach him that (and already have) in my garage on the weekends.  Thanks again and I very much appreciate the time you spent replying to my posts.  Forgive me for the Delhi confusion.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-22-2009 02:27 Edited 11-24-2009 19:26
Thar's okay Alarmclock!

I personally think that there are very good welding programs being offered at a variety of Technical programs across the country, and one in particular which I mentioned, PA College of Technology is a very good one in Williamsport, PA if I remember correctly. There's another good one east of this one in PA as well and fbrieden teaches in that one, so you may want to talk to him about his school.... There's one in Schenectady, NY called "The Modern Welding School" which is good school as well, and there's another one in Bethlehem, PA, but offhand, I do not remember the name.

Now as far as union apprenctice training programs are concerned, they are all top notch with instructors who are all from the field, and have worked their trades for many years prior to getting into training, so you cannot go wrong with any of those programs if you can get him in and that's the big if, or they accept your son outright.

Finally, the Hobart school from what I've seen and also from what I've read and heard from folks who have previously attended their courses is one of the top private schools in the country, yet pricey as well so you might want to consider that as well... Honestly, I was not at all impressed with their training facilities and I've seen better facilities in some technical colleges as well as other private schools than what I observed at Lincoln... However, the folks I've come across that have attended their school equally rave about theri quality of education there as well, so I'm just giving you my view from what I saw as their proverbial cover representing their "book" And you know what they say about judging a book by it's cover don't you??? So I may just be way off base in my opinion of Lincoln's facility. Anywho, that's my perspective FWIW. ;)

Btw, I almost forgot!!! "Weldcome to the World's Greatest Welding Forum" And I hope that you continue to participate in here along with the rest of us!!! :) :) :) So, if you have any questions, or want to discuss anything welding related in here, feel free to do so!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-22-2009 04:16
Alarmclock

I doubt if you will get many experienced welders to agree that time spent learning to gas weld is "wasted".  Being taught ove again by another teacher will also be beneficial.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 11-24-2009 16:59 Edited 11-24-2009 17:05
I am a graduate of the PA College of Technology program. I transferred there to finish my degree in welding engineering and I had to take some additional welding classes.  All the schools I know keep some gas welding classes on the curriculum, PCT has 8 credits, my previous school had about the same  it's a great introduction to tig welding, some students find it a good introduction because it's slower, and they cover gas cutting as well. While I don't think i'll ever be doing gas welding or brazing in my career  I don't consider the time spent on it "wasted" and it's still used in the aerospace industry quite frequently. Some programs are dated, but you'll find most all welding schools will put the freshmen on gas welding first.

My vote would be for PCT but I may be biased as I attended the school.  My previous institution Washtenaw Community College has of the highest regarded Associate welding programs in the nation. They really expected the best out of us and technically prepared to be skilled welders. However it's located in michigan and that's a little far.

I don't have opinions on too many of the other programs as I never really explored them. but the PCT program is good and your son would be just in time to catch the entire new welding facility they are building, the curriculum  is very modern, they teach NDT and robotic welding. Very well rounded program. Here's a link http://www.pct.edu/schools/IET/weld/
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-24-2009 19:24 Edited 11-24-2009 19:27
I do understand what the OP was inferring to when he mentioned that OAW would be a waste of time for his son, and I'll explain why to the mostly uninformed in here...

Every NY State BOCES (Board Of Cooperative Education Services) student receives three, count it three years of OAW as well as brazing training in different applications throughout there time in their respective BOCES/HighSchool training cycles... This is exactly why it would be a waste of time in not only the OP's (Original Poster's) opinion, but IMHO as well and would only put an excess redundancy as well as wasted expenditures that can be used instead, to train them in something they have yet to have any previous training with - CAPECHE???

Everything else that everybody has commented on does a have a level of validity and value, so I will not comment on those aspects since there's no need to.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 11-24-2009 22:00
well in that case, most colleges offer advanced placement and waivers for formal or workplace training. I was able to be waived out of many credits due to my work as a CNC machinist, took the place of my CAD, CAM classes. Most schools would offer similar programs especially for established criteria.

Why does the NY BOCES program focus so heavily on OFW?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-25-2009 02:04 Edited 11-25-2009 02:10
Indeed!

What it all boils down to Metarinka is this... All of the BOCES schools are based on the  model of being a full service vocational/technical high school that is designed for dual purpose education... What do I mean by this??? It simply means that any junior high school, or intermediate school students that has a BOCES within their own school region, or area which is usually a county, can opt out of a regular academically focused high school and instead, go to a BOCES for their publicly funded secondary education with the exception of students who are enrolled in the New York City public school system which have their own centralized vocational/technical high schools that are not called BOCES and are instead just given a name of a famous person followed by Vocational/Technical High School.

And with the exception of the rest of the public school system in the State of New York, both the BOCES and City Vo-Tech high schools were mostly designed in the Nineteen 30's, 40's and 50's with a very few designed in the late sixties and constructed in the seventies, yet largely based on the same architectural designs used in the earlier schools as well so, many of the same school features were incorporated from school to school much like the "cookie cutter' designs of many of the older public schools in general.

So most of the BOCES as well as the City Vo-Tech schools emphasize training in two processes which were dominant from those decades with the exception of GMAW and FCAW that are also taught in the schools as well, yet with less emphasis as well as less equipment in comparison to OAW and SMAW... So most, if not all of these Vo-Tech high schools were originally constructed this way, and the instructors in their respective metal trades departments all had manifolds and gas welding equipment readily available for them to use in teaching the processes... So all of the BOCES are standardized in each their skilled trades departmental design layouts.

There are have been some significant changes in the type of electric arc welding equipment as well as processes that are now offered in all of the BOCES and City Vo-tech high schools... While they still offer OAW, OAB and SMAW abundantly for each student, the schools have recently switched to multi-process power sources to teach the welding students GMAW & FCAW as well as GTAW, and allocating more time in training the students with these processes than previously given in the past, so they're slowly changing for the better in that more of the most commonly used processes used in industry are taught to the students and therefore increasing the chances of them being able to transition into the workforce which most of them do since only a minority do go on to further their education.

The other purpose of these schools is to train adults in the skilled trades which are offered to high school level students as well... The overall success of the adult workforce training programs have led to these school being infused with larger capital budgets which have enabled them to purchase more modern equipment such as new manifolds for shielding gas delivery to the welding booths, newer arc welding equipment, newer metal working equipment including CNC machining centers, auto body, auto mechanical equipment, computerized diagnostic equipment, frame straightening, alignment systems... Some with industrial robots... The Latest versions of CAD/CAM applications as well as periodical upgrades to their computers, etc, etc.

This means less time is given to the older more traditional skill sets such as for instance, OAW and OAB than in the previous decades yet nonetheless, it is the very first welding/Brazing process taught to each and every student enrolled in a BOCES or City Vo-Tech high school irrespective of al of the other processes offered as well. The reason why Acetylene is used as the fuel gas is primarily because of what is allowed by the municipal fire codes in each of the various regions/counties in NY State. I am unaware if any of the schools offer gas welding training with the use of another fuel gas besides Acetylene in NY, so I couldn't tell you whether or not other fuel gases are used as well in some area's.

Now this is not to say that the State Technical Colleges, or the associated community colleges are devoid of OAW/OAB equipment to train for instance students that did not come from the BOCES or Vo-Tech high schools of NYC... The only difference for the most part is that most of the post-secondary schools are not set up in the same manner as the BOCES, or City Vo-tech schools to offer gas welding training to large numbers of students simultaneously as they are in the specialized high schools...

So the "Non-traditional" students tend to get short changed in the quality and quantity with this welding process that "Traditional " students have already been trained to a decent proficiency level upon beginning their post secondary level of education, and this sometimes requires the instructor to spend more time training the non-traditional students how to manipulate the weld pool, or puddle when they are being trained to become proficient in the GTAW process.

I hope this answers you question. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry           
Parent - By jsdwelder (***) Date 11-30-2009 21:18
Modern Welding School in Schenectady New York Ph. # 1-800-396-6810. Would love to hear from you. Check out the website ModernWelding.com
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / AWS Learning & Education / SUNY Delhi or SUNY Alfred Welding Course for a teenager?

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