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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Expired Certification
- - By apiguy (*) Date 05-21-2002 18:50
I would like to know the recommended course of action for dealing with an individual that is certifying welders and procedures with an expired CWI certification. After reviewing the procdures and welder's certifications, I began to question the ability of the individual and contacted the main office who informed me of the expired CWI. Now...I hold a CWI as well as all three API's and I certainly keep my certifications current. How does one let this happen ?
Parent - - By Wildturkey (**) Date 05-21-2002 19:12
apiguy,
I do not know what code the welders were tested to but none of the codes I deal with require a CWI to write procedures and qualify welders. You just have to make shure that the testing was done within the requirements of the code. If the CWI is violating the code of ethics then you can contact the AWS and get the AWS QC9-98. This form is Administrative Procedures for Alleged Violations of AWS Certification Programs.
Parent - - By apiguy (*) Date 05-21-2002 19:50
Wildturkey,

The welders' were working to B31.3 which follows the principles of the ASME code for certification. The fact is that the gentleman is violating the code of ethics by signing the procedures and certifications and using an expired CWI stamp. I was not aware of the QC9-98 form myself. I will review the code of ethics again and would like to recommend that other CWI's do so as well.....thanks for the input.
Parent - - By Wildturkey (**) Date 05-23-2002 12:35
I didn't know he was using his stamp.....how did you find out that his certification had expired?
Parent - - By apiguy (*) Date 05-23-2002 14:45
As part of my job as client representative, I had to verify all the documents for the project. WPS, PQR, etc.....Well I believe in verifying everything and when it came to the individual that certified the welders and the procedures, I felt obliged to verify all of the certifications and contacted AWS with the stamp number. The name was not very legible so that is basically was prompted the search.

Let me add, that several mistakes were found in the procedures and I had to have them revised before allowing them to be used on site.( mostly F#/ A# kind of problems.

I am in an isolated area where word travels fast. It is not my intent to "burn" anyone, but I do feel that each individual is responsible for his own actions. I have found out through different sources that this same individual attacked my personal reputation as an inspector over 3 months ago to the project engineers I work with. He was trying to get in the plant and acquire the inspection contract. Now... this looks like some sort of " get even" move on my part. I would like to state that there is nothing personal involved; in my opinion I am doing what my client is paying me to do.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-23-2002 16:54
I guess your situation gives evidence to the sayings " what goes around comes around" or "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". As you described, it's "bad form" to try to get a job by discrediting someone else, that says something about a person's character when you consider him/her for a job. Nothing wrong with competition if the person accents the positive.
If my job was to check credentials, (which sometimes it is) I would have called AWS too. Matter of fact, I do that whenever someone shows me an AWS Welder qualification with an expired date, "but AWS hasn't sent me a new one yet."

As far as writing WPSs and PQRs, I don't know why it is, whenever I write one out, double check it, triple check it, there always seems to be something I didn't do correctly. Usually something simple like calling a vertical groove a 1G position. So I always try to remember that when I get to review someone else's, unless they are totally out to lunch.

Also as far as Pipewelder's situation, I personally like to keep my credentials current, but I do understand that a lot of people feel the same as he does. But as long as a person is not misrepresenting himself and the client understands and accepts the situation, I don't think any harm is done.

So as long as you know you weren't trying to burn anyone and were merely doing what you were supposed to do, I'd leave the matter alone. It'll be settled and forgotten soon enough.
CHGuilford
Parent - - By apiguy (*) Date 05-23-2002 20:41
On one procedure, there was a reference for using 2% Thoriated Tungsten on an SMAW weld....
Parent - By Seldom (**) Date 05-24-2002 11:39
Hi Rick,
Looks like you caught the fella doing a little "cut & paste" and didn't do a good job of reviewing his work before submitting it.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-21-2002 23:15
I have chosen not to "renew" my certifications. When I am offered a job that will pay for or justify the extremely high cost vs. what AWS provides I will renew or recertify.

I let my 9 year certification go completely and took the entire test since the addition cost for renewal test vs the entire test was small. I am thinking about doing the same thing every three years now since the 3 year renewal fee is so high.

I keep the test results section of the tests and show the potential employers/customers that I have passed the tests with 90% or higher scores and that usuallty suffices.

If the individual is not selling himself as a current CWI, there is no problem.
Parent - - By apiguy (*) Date 05-21-2002 23:53
According to your own statement, then your user profile is incorrect. If your certification has expired, how can you still be a CWI ? I realize that just because you elected to allow your certification lapse does not mean you forgot how to be a CWI. I have read many of your posts in this forum and others and have come to respect your professionalism but I find this to be rather shocking. I don't believe that the cost divided by three years is hardly considered extreme when you factor in the difference in pay rate. Picking up the CWI increased my yearly salary $15,000-$40,000. I would say that is a fairly decent justification of the renewal fee. In the industries that I work, certification is everything. My peers see "letting a cert go back" as a sign of weakness or lack of responsibility. Please do not take any of this post personal - that is not the intent.

Would you allow a welder who had certs 3 years ago weld on your project ? Why does a welder have to requalify if he doesn't weld for 6 months ? Why doesn't he just pass one test and then weld whenever he feels like it ?

Maybe the guy I'm dealing with feels the same way. I know my certifications are a requirement of my job and I have to furnish my documentation to every employer / Fab shop / any body else who wants it.

By the way, AWS has plenty to offer if you know how to use it or ask for it. How about this forum for one........
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-22-2002 01:03
At the time I entered the profile I was certified. I will have to update that discrepancy. I may have a few resumes the same way.

I haven't really had a difference in pay rate based on "certification". I am looking at a project now that if I accept I will have to renew or retest for my certification.

$15K to 40k is justification. I have never allowed a piece of paper to make me feel less responsible nor show any weakness but I do understand where you are coming from. In the industries I have worked in, the requirements for certification can always be overcome if the core knowledge or ability exists.

If certification is required it should be maintained. If an inspectors ability is questionable and clear evidence exists that the inspector is not complying with the inspection criteria, certification means nothing.

A welder does have to requalify if he doesn't weld, however if he maintains continuity with any process all qualifications are maintained. A skill such as that dwindles much quicker than knowledge in my opinion. Why shouldn't continued work in the "Quality Control" field maintain certification?

I was a little abrupt about the value of AWS and they have done much more to promote welding as a trade than I have. This and One other forum are the only places I go with regularity and would pay my annual AWS dues for this only.

Thanks for the tip about the CWI on my listing. I'll take care of it.

Have a good day
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 05-24-2002 14:09
In my opinion, if you let you AWS CWI certs expire, you are still a welding inspector, just not a certified welding inspector. He should not be using an expired CWI stamp. That is falsification, clear and simple. I don't know if the contract calls for a CWI, but the fact that he is using an expired stamp is not good. If anything was to happen to any components that he certified the PQR/WPS for, then his company, as well as himself could be legally liable for it.
Parent - - By Seldom (**) Date 05-24-2002 23:26
Well I’ve got to raise my hand because I’m also one of those who’ve allowed his certs to expire.
Specific to Rick’s case though, the lack of current certification is nothing compared to the individuals lack of integrity! Did the individual really make technical mistakes or were they mistakes being made by an exempt and inexperienced inspector!

Once I retired from my career company, I didn’t want to quit doing what I really enjoyed prior to retirement so I continued to provide part-time contract consulting and inspection services. The problem arose as I came due to renew my CWI certs last April. Since retirement and during the last three years of part-time work I’d only been working 300-500 hrs/yr. As per the requirements of QC1, 12.2.1, I couldn’t honestly show two years of activity during the last three years. If I’d had the two years worth, it would have taken me up to my 2nd, nine year certification and I would not have let it lapse.

The interesting thing about the renewal and recertification process for me was that nobody required or cared if I was a CWI. I changed my resume to read that I “had been certified until April 2002” but at present I was “certifiable”! What they did care about and found value in, was my 38 years of welding and QA/QC experience.

I will agree wholeheartedly that if a client requires an individual to have current certs that’s fine but sometimes there’s a point being missed. The point missed is that we, as experienced and trained individuals, don’t empty our heads as you would a wastepaper basket when we aren’t working! Look at the common codes and standards of construction we work with, none that I’ve worked to require an individual to be a CWI, not even the good old AWS’s D1.1 as stated in 6.1.4.1 (1)(2)(3).
Granted, there has to be a time for all of us individually when we lose our edge and lose step with the technology advances due to in activity in our field. Then it’s time to hang it up.

The key, as I see it, has to do with verification! Not unlike the verification process we use in determining a welders ability to produce sound welds and meet minimum spec requirements. If a client is knowledgeable enough to hire us, they should be knowledgeable enough to verify that we are performing to his expectations! That means a client would need to have a quality assurance process by which to verify the inspectors performance. Heck, he’s hiring an inspector to perform either a QC or QA process that verifies a welders ability, why not do the same thing with an inspector? This shouldn’t be a problem but from my experience, it certainly can be. I’ve personally witnessed NDE Techs with CWI certs perform thickness testing 40 hours a week for three years that had no problem with renewing their CWI certs! I’ve also witnessed a CWI/API510 inspector that did the same thing and had no problem with his three-year renewals either and this guy didn’t know the difference between a PQR and a WPQR when he had one in each hand!

In the end, what does a current certification really provide a client? In my opinion, darn near nothing except it shows the individual at some point in time passed a test! To me, it only gives him a license to inspect the first production weld and nothing more and then only if he gets past my interview!
Parent - - By apiguy (*) Date 05-27-2002 14:02
The bells of wisdom ring loud and speak true once again Mike. We have had several conversations surrounding this entire ordeal. The gentleman with the expired certification is the same guy we have talked about in the past. ( 100 % N2 Purge gas for 254 smo) We were able to finally coordinate a meeting with all parties earlier this month. When the x-ray film was presented for our review, there were 11 cracks that were either incorrectly identified or not even reported at all. Several of the cracks were intrepreted as "IP"; but, as I put in the other post, how does IP turn into a transverse indication?

The intent of this post was to find out what course of action should be taken against someone who is obviously not complying with the code of ethics for CWI inspectors.

I have found out from outside sources that his gentleman will issue procedures and certifications to anyone who "shows him the money".

As client rep, I have required several of these guys to retest on site and not one has passed. ( mostly IP nearly 3/4 around a 6" coupon) How is it that the day they tested at the shop they made a perfect weld with x-ray film and all ?

If it looks like a rat...smells like a rat.......must be a rat. Only this rat has a stamp that in the eye of the beholder means he is an expert in his field.

Mike,

About the 510/CWI person... That is a very common thing these days. I can name about twenty 510 inspectors that don't know the difference between a graham cracker and a cat-cracker but they have the cert.
Once again they took thickness readings on vessels for three years, went to a high profile training course that teaches the test and presto ! Instant API Inspector !

On that subject, keep in mind :

" The API examination is a measure of a candidate who barely meets the minimum education and experience to become an entry level inspector "

That is a quote from thew API website.


Just my three cents worth....
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-28-2002 13:40
apiguy
I get a little more of the picture with each new post. I guess the only question is, Is the guy intentionally misrepresenting himself or does he not know any better? Either way the Code of Ethics states that all inspectors have a responsibility to the health and well being of the public. You also have the responsibility to act with integrity; to be fair and honest in your dealings but also not to allow wrongdoing that you are aware of.
I think the sooner you take the matter to a higher level, the sooner it can be resolved and you'll be free of it. The good part of a committee is the members are not personally affected by the outcome (or shouldn't be, anyways). They also will have public safety, integrity, and professionalism in mind.
The down side is that you could have an enemy for life (if you don't already but you know that). The up side is the guy could realize he's made some mistakes, do what he can to correct them, and become a valuable colleague.
Hope all works out ok.
CHGuilford
Parent - By jwinmars (*) Date 06-08-2002 00:58
To me, the main thing here is the fact that the guy used a CWI stamp to which he is not entitled to use. AWS should require CWI's that let there certifications expire, to surrender their stamps back to AWS.

You should file a complaint to AWS using the form, and let them handle it from there.

Yes the guy is still an inspector. NO he is not a current CWI nor is he entitled to use a CWI stamp. As a current CWI, It makes me upset to see someone who is not entitled to the stamp use it. A CWI is something you earn, and if you value it, you try to keep it. I do agree that it is expensive if coming out of your own pocket, and circumstances could prevent one from afording to renew. BUT IF THIS GUY HAS ANY ETHICS ABOUT HIM, HE WOULD NOT BE USING THE STAMP AFTER HIS CERTIFICATION EXPIRED!

So please, do all of us who earned the CWI and maintain it the favor of filing a complaint.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Expired Certification

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