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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / My dilemma
- - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-03-2009 23:38
Gonna try and keep this short......but you guys should know me by now.

Sitting in class last night, got 5 days left, getting my diploma in welding technology. I've got this burning desire to be out welding, ready to grind welds, bevel pipe and so on to get experience as a helper plus I could sock away some cash to get my real welder going. Got this crazy aching urge to be a part of the Denali Pipeline, don't know why. So, back to the school thing. We were talking about adding more booths, told him I would help out at night if they wanted to get building. He mentioned that his back-up teacher was no longer available(sitting next to him, hired as a second teacher good tig/mig guy). He then tells me that he is gonna be out for a month or two to get his finger taken care of and wanted to know if I wanted to be the new back up teacher. Needless to say, I was shocked but that is not it. He goes on and says the new director is wanting to expand, update the school and so on. Long story short, he wanted to know if I would be interested in teaching. They want a guy who can fabricate/weld to teach students basics. In my opinion fabricating is mostly about being able to picture what you want and figuring out how your gonna do it and at times when the younger guys ask where I learned how to fab I have to tell them I'm self taught out of necessity. It's like the mechanic stuff. I explain something to my brother in law that is mundane and simple in my mind as a mechanic and when I look in his eye's it's the classic deer in the headlights.

Anyhow, he say's that the director is wanting to move quick, within the year. I've busted my backside this last year pounding rod and other stuff at school and at home so I might have a chance at getting out in the field in someplace, USA shooting sparks off somebody else's welds until I could break into doing the welding myself.

Now, my dilemma. This is a state teaching job, obviously there will be an application process, interviews and so on. I'll have a good reference and I consider the teacher my friend and part of this is being able to work well with the other folks. So, not necassarily a guaranteed position but I would have a leg up I suppose over the average joe off the street. The job obviously will have good bennies, retirement, work 44 weeks out of 52, great Christmas breaks and so on. It'll be warm in the winter, cool in the summer, stay pretty much clean all day. Five years ago as a mechanic I would have jumped on those last three things in a heartbeat, then I took a field service mechanic job and the heat and cold became irrelevant. I called my wife after the talk with the teacher and explained it to her real quick. The one thing she said that really stuck in my mind was this, "I'm worried if you take it a few years down the road you'll regret not doing what you've been talking about for the last year". She's ok either way and wants me to do what I really want to.

I've thought about it for two days now and still stumped. The teaching job sounds great but it comes back to that desire to be out, in my truck welding along side some of you guys I've met on here. Being out someplace laying off in a mudhole on a back board, snow up to my ding a ling or sweating it out in Texas, Oklahoma.....or where ever. I've invested a bunch of time, been getting four-five hours of sleep per night for the last year so I could better myself. I've been reading books, learning from ya'll on here to prepare and the thought of just letting it go and not using what I've learned or accomplished is another thing that is stuck in my head. So far in the last 2 years I've turned down the US Postal Service mechanic job that was offered, I've tearned down the Nashville Airport Authority and I've even turned down the Local 572 Pipefitters. I mean they call and say, "you ready to come to work, when can you start?" and I think, is this really what I want to do??? Now here I am actually considering turning down the state job that has nearly been layed in my lap? For what?? Because I want to be out in the bush somewhere with a bunch of hard ankles sweatin' or freezin' my gonads off up underneath a welding hood.

See, told ya'll I was gonna try and keep it short, luckily my wife is hounding me that dinner is done!
Parent - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 12-04-2009 00:00
You've  got an   " in "   on  this job , you are young  -

it won't kill you to try it for a year  -

there really isn't a lot in  the  " outside "  world  right now  -
Parent - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 12-04-2009 00:00
You've  got an   " in "   on  this job , you are young  -

it won't kill you to try it for a year  -

there really isn't a lot in  the  " outside "  world  right now  -
Parent - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 12-04-2009 00:00
You've  got an   " in "   on  this job , you are young  -

it won't kill you to try it for a year  -

there really isn't a lot in  the  " outside "  world  right now  -
Parent - By bmaas1 (***) Date 12-04-2009 00:04
That's a tough one.  Jobs just don't come around that easily.  But I think it boils down to what you really want to do for better or worse.

Good luck either way.

Brian
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 12-04-2009 00:29
Shawn, I once had a chance to do the same thing, Money was ok, not great, but was alot cleaner. The clincher was dealing with kids that were just there to past time, go thru the motions,etc. "teaching at a vo-tech can be trying". Later after being in business for 10-15 yrs. I got involved on the vo-tech board. When it came time for student job placement I come to find out only 10% were being placed ,when I talked to the Vo-tech administrator about this she told me" matter-of-factly" that 10% was all you can expect and the rest are "unemployable". Sad, but is this normal for vo-techs ? Don't know, I quit the board and decided to concentrate on something I can get results from, my own business. So if you got alot of patience and get satisfaction from teaching go for it. PS. GO STEELERS
Parent - By sparksandslag (**) Date 12-04-2009 00:33
FWIW, take this with a grain of salt.  I'm not now/never have been a pro welder.  Love to do the work, but only as a necessity on the farm, and as a hobby.  But, to the point you are facing--you have what it takes to catch the attention of a teacher, or you would not have been offered the  position.  That tells me that you have potential to go forward in that area.  The steady employment, good environment to work in, possibly good perks---that looks mighty good compared to the iffy work environment in today's economy, the working environment you so well described (hot, cold, wet, etc.).  And realize this--sometimes the Good Lord just puts you in the right place at the right time for something you didn't realize you were ready for.  I speak from the experience of taking a summer job in 1980 to fill in until I could find the job I was looking.  Well, the summer job turned into a 26 year career which I  thoroughly enjoyed up to the day I retired.

Give the teaching job a year trial.  If it doesn't pan out--guess what? you have one more positive that you can put on your job applications when you apply for a welding job.  If it does pan out, who knows where you could go with it.  Best of luck either way.
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 12-04-2009 00:48
It comes down to Money I would take any job that pays me to support my family.
Yet....... I would always wonder during the years of teaching how much more knowledge could I pass down if I myself had more experience.
Do you know what I mean?
But first thing is first and that’s survival.
MDK
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 12-04-2009 01:56 Edited 12-04-2009 02:05
Hi Shawn

Quite the delima. 

Something that helps to make an effective welding teacher is a variety of experiences... manufacturing, repair, construction, etc.  Every bit as important though are leadership, managerial, and organizational skills.  Unfortunately the latter can be overlooked when hiring vocational educators.  Sometimes the results are pretty catastrophic.  Not every Journeyman, no matter how technically skilled and knowledgeable, is ready to be promoted to Superintendent over night.  The two jobs require two totally different skill sets.  If you already have substantial leadership experience it would be a huge help.  Personally if I was on the hiring commitee that would be something I would really be looking for... Has this man demonstrated he can lead people?  Can he run the program well with minimal supervision?

Teaching jobs always seem to pop up.  From your post my guess is that you probably have a high level of education already.  The combination of education and field experience go a long ways towards making you competitive for a FT teaching job.

BTW, FT instructional duty can eat up 55-65 hours a week if you plan to take it seriously... and being salaried you of course don't get paid extra for those hours.  I wouldn't count on school breaks away from work either, at least not for the first 3-5 years.  The teaching load is only a portion of the total work load.  Managing a shop, equipment, budget, etc with several shifts of men going through the doors every day who are eating up consumables and wearing out equipment is no small task.

Anyway as with any job you aren't married to it, so it is hard to go too wrong by giving it a try.  At the same time though, assuming responsibility for the education of others is not an obligation to take lightly.

Part time teaching is a good way to give instruction a try without all the additional responsibilties that are heaped on a FT faculty member.

Good luck in your decision!
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-04-2009 04:59
I'm 38 so not a young buck, well younger than some I suppose. I understand what you mean Smooth Operator when you say young kids just passing the time. That's the thing about me, a characteristic if you will I think will be a teacher problem. If a person does not have the drive and determination to do it themselves I'm not the type that's gonna give a friendly push. If you can't push yourself then I really could not care and that could be a hang up as a teacher and one reason why in my own eyes I'm probably not fit to teach and if they were just there to hang out I'd be more likely to tell them to move on and make room for someone who actually wants to be there. Your right Blaster, the teaching cannot be taken lightly. If I was asked to be a teacher of gear heads, no problem, I've got enough confidence to do that. In my mind as a fabricator/welder I'm gonna get stumped by students asking the questions because I don't know enough or they'll see the gears turning in my head as I try to work something out instead of having that split second answer. I've built stairs, fit pipe now(still need to learn more) and figured it all out on my own for the most part but I think what they(students) want in a teacher is a guy who has already figured it out and done it many times.

The thing with trying it for a year is this. I like the guy and have somehow gained his respect and would much rather say no and starve or run around working two jobs than go at it for one year and after that find out it's not my cup of tea, which means I would end up quiting. To me I would have failed him, especially after saying yeah I'm interested and getting his backing for the job and maybe getting the job. Doe's this make sense?

The other thing I'm worried about is being stuck in that rut. As a mechanic it was $35-$40K per year and I was good, cannot be humble about that. I got out because with my family it was just enough to survive on and barely maintain my own junk vehicles. No vacations......anywhere, scrounging to make doctor bills, worried about dental bills and some folks would say it was good money or even great but we were always stuck, hurting for money with no savings. Don't eat out, no fancy toys, boats, motorcycles, big screens etc. Just basic stuff and usually if something big came up we were screwed. All my tools I've bought have been from side work, heck I hauled scrap for about two years and all of that went to my truck payments, also side work. So, I'm worried this teaching job will land me right back into my rut wage, stuck working a second job at Toys R Us again just to make ends meet, working on the weekends wrenchin' on OPS and doing what side work welding I can get in and fallin' into the hack category. 

Either way neither job is an actual guaranteed thing, either welding or the teaching, maybe I'm just to picky on what I actually want to do. Which in itself is not so picky, I want to weld, with that statement I guess deep down I've already made my decision? Just as I don't want to be known as "that welder" I don't want to be known as "that teacher" who screwed up and mis-educated.
Parent - - By strother (***) Date 12-04-2009 05:54
I'm 39 yrs. old got a wife and two kids, wondering where in the hell the last 20 years went. I've struggled for past 9yrs. with my own welding bussiness, if an opportunitty like that came along I would probably hang my head and take it . 
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-04-2009 08:45
Shawn       I will agree that trying it out {if the money is ok with you}  would not be a bad decision considering how bad things are going right now for many rig welders and welding businesses.  There are a lot of guys out there hunting work by all indications I see.....I think if your willing to burn up time far from home you will find work...just maybe not the jobs you would prefer to have at the moment.   You might really love the teaching thing, it's not the most lucrative but I believe it has its own rewards psychologically ( I believe)  that surpass money.  I think Allan and Lawrence could give you some of the best perspective on what being a serious educator means in all aspects.   If your tempted it will not stop the world or prevent you from going out on the road a year from now. 

I make about the same as you were welding on aircraft  40-55k.  I have a large family and I understand EXACTLY where you are coming from.....we survive and that's about it.   Our "living it up" is each others company and growing up together as a family.   We do not need $ to be happy, we just need to pay our bills.  I could have a whole lot to say here but this is not about me, it is about you and what you gotta do.  Nobody here can tell you the right answer man.....the right answer is in your heart.  I hope you can hear it.

Best regards man
TOmmy
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 12-04-2009 10:57
Cumminsguy71
I don't know the extent of your knowledge base. I do know that the kids deserve a well qualified teacher, are you him. There are a lot of things I see missing from the curriculum's if the applicants we get are a sign of what is actually being taught. I find that the applicants have an ability but not a sufficient knowledge of the processes and equipment. I also think that before a person can call themselves a real welder they need to be at least familiar with inspection of welds to have the ethics if you will to say this isn't working instead of I can cover this crap with the next pass.
Again I don't know what you really have to offer. I have noticed a desire for welding from your posts. Would like the first response of your wife this satisfy the ideas of welding you have had for the last year?
But we can't help this is about you and the family and your futures. Weigh it all and be sure of your convictions.
Good Luck and God Bless 
Marshall
Parent - - By Johnyutah (**) Date 12-04-2009 15:06
Shawn I agree this is a tough one if you have kids and the steady work with good benefits will help you be with them then take it. Also you can always keep doing your stuff on the side. Now if thats not a factor it is nice to go see new places and do something you love to do good luck man.
Parent - - By JMCInc (**) Date 12-04-2009 16:28
It’s always a ticklish situation when a friend or someone you respect and admire puts their neck on the line to give a hand. No advice there, sorry.

  I personally really like to teach. However, I don’t like to wake up on the 1st of Jan. and know how much money I’ll make that year because I’m salaried. As mentioned previously, to do a really good job it will take a lot of extra time. That time will come from your family, the side jobs you were planning on taking to supplement your income, or both.  I like to get rewarded for my hard work. If I put in a lot of time, I want to be compensated for it. If I slack off it’s not fair for the client to have to keep paying me. Food for thought.

I don’t think you have to worry about your total lack of knowledge. I’ve found that just being honest about what I don’t know and then involving everyone in the research process to discover the answer will gain the most respect. Of course you have to have SOME indication that you know what the hell you’re talking about. That’s were your leadership skills gained in the Marines will come in handy. Every Marine I’ve ever worked with has been an excellent addition to the crew. Level headed, good decision making, etc. They move to the head of the line when I’m hiring.

Jon
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 12-04-2009 21:41
This is a real tuff one and one that I have thought of for myself down the road. Going to the vo tech school for about two years learning to weld I have seen alot of worthless pieces of poo very few actually got welding and even less actually are still welding. I'd say myself and maybe 2 others in my class of 20 are actually welding for a living. It sure will take alot of pateiences to teach still not sure i'm ready for that one.

If i was given the chance to teach I think I'd give it a try for a year if the money was good. I wish when I was in school we would have built more stuff and that is where learning to fabricate stuff comes in and thats something I'm lacking along with the fitting. I'd deffinatly try building more stuff and getting the students involved with that instead of doing whatever the books says they have to weld that semester. I have said it before your words are like me speaking out, you have worked so hard trying to learn pipe and get better so you can go make more money and you don't want the teaching thing to be kinda a waste, I understand. If it was me I'd give it a try and if it wasn't for me I'd leave hell down the road when you get older and you're knee's and back are shot this maybe a great retirement job for ya.

Like someone else said you have to make this decision not us, you are the one to live with it but hell a year to live with it isn't to bad at all, all in all it will be a good experience no matter what.

I know of a student that was in my class he was offered a job teaching at night for welding and in a way i can't understand why they hired him because he doens't have the 2 years experience that they wanted. I do feel they should have hired someone else who had more experience because you want a good teacher that can weld but not only that you want a teacher who has been around the block a few times and can really help a student get a job out there. This guy has no real world experience and wouldn't be able to get you any kinda job out there. Sure he can weld and fabracate and fit like no other but finding a student a job not a chance. I always enjoyed when my teacher and another teacher would take us on field trips to different welding and machine shops in the area and that is what really opened the doors up for me getting my first job. Just thought I'd add this as well.

Take care
Chris
Parent - - By Sharp Tungsten (**) Date 12-04-2009 21:38
If your teacher was from the construction trade I think he would totally understand if you drug up off the job if you found  out it wasn't your cup of tea. As tommy said times are tough right now and not really a good time to be breaking out in welding in my opinion. I probably would take  the gravy job and try it at least.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 12-05-2009 01:42
Shawn,
Before you get Carpal Tunnel in the thumbs flipping a quarter over this dilemma, consider this. I've known a couple of Instructors that made quite good $$$ during summer breaks (and in the off hours) doing short-term training sessions. One fellow in particular was offered a 1 year exchange at the Patton Institute in Kiev, Ukraine. One never knows the opportunities that lie beyond every "opened door". Also the chance to get your CWE, and well, you get the idea.
No matter what, you'll make the right choice, cuz that's the decision you made!

Best of luck to you.
ps. I feel your pain towards intolerance of those who will not apply themselves...work those Slackers knuckles with a steel ruler. It worked for Sister Mary Catherine!
Parent - By ibeweldingsum (***) Date 12-06-2009 15:53
(Carpal tunnel from flipping a quarter) LMFAO!!!!!
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-05-2009 02:12
This is an opportunity that is here NOW when there are not a lot of opportunities. You can give it a year or 2 and see how it works out for You personally while there is not much going on in the industry. You might really like it, and if You do, 25 years from now it will sure be more apealing than laying in a mud & snow filled ditch welding pipe.

I was a machine shop major in school, I had a great teacher. He was tough on the kids that were there to waste everyones time, and they soon found easier places to spend their highschool years. However, He gave the slower kids who tried to apply themselves a chance to learn what they could. He really liked His job, said it was the best job He ever had. I believe He was in His 30s when He went from industry to teaching.

In each of the shops at the school I went to there were 1-3 students per graduating class that were really serious about working in the field they majored in. The learning curve is pretty steep for most students, much different than what You went through to learn welding starting as a mechanic. There may be some challenges along the way, but You will continue to learn as You teach.

With regard to being able to live on what You can earn, only You can judge that. Industry doesn't always provide steady income, as You know.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-05-2009 07:56
Hello Shawn, I wasn't a youngster when I went the way of teaching, although my first experiences in that area were when I was 19. Many years later I went back to it as a full-time, part-time job. It sounds like you will be teaching in a community college or vo-tech from what I have gathered from your past posts of your school experience. To me that is a good thing, especially considering your thoughts about working with those who are truly interested in pursuing and getting an education. As others have already said, high schools can be full of those who are passing time and not really interested in what they can gain from a vocational education, although that isn't always the case.
     There are many folks out there who are really terrific at what they can do in specific areas or types of work, that doesn't automatically make them great "teachers", that being said, if you are the type of individual who can motivate and get across varying points of view and inspire others to work to make themselves better you are already ahead in the teaching game. Another consideration here, you are relatively new to the welding, this can be a benefit due to your likely ability to remember the challenges that you have gone through to get better and overcome obstacles as you have progressed in your own learning. Sometimes when you have been teaching for a long time it is hard to put yourself in the seat of your students and remember exactly how it is to not automatically know how to approach all the challenges of different welding scenarios. Fresh perspectives are a good thing. In my case, I try to draw on the other more experienced students while working with the new ones in order to be able to get across some of those sorts of things. There are many skills that go along with teaching that have nothing to do with a specific vocation or craft: life skills, interpersonal skills, confidence in ones own self, many other skills that your age has provided to you that you can share with students are just as important as any other skills that are directly related to welding. Those are the things that will make you a great teacher and inspire your students to become great craftspeople and good citizens.
     One of the first things that I noticed about my teaching experiences that differed greatly from private industry and how it operated was the personal rewards that came from it. In private industry you are much more likely to receive kudos from superiors or praise/support from fellow workers. In the teaching arena, at least where I have been teaching, there isn't a lot of praise from my bosses, higher ups, or peers, there is however, a great deal of pride/satisfaction from seeing successful students and those who have overcome great challenges to pursue and realize their personal dreams and knowing that you have at least been a small part of that. In some instances you will just know this on a level within yourself and in other cases you will come to this realization through the thank you's, letters, phone calls, friendships, or other methods of conveyance that will come about over the years. My old teaching partner was at it long enough that he had taught 3 generations of the same family in some instances, for me I am at the 2 generation mark and fast closing on this 3 generation thing. It is a very personally satisfying sort of thing to realize that you can have a positive impact such as that.
     Monetarily, I don't know the specifics of your area so it would be hard to give you accurate information there. In my area, I could certainly make more money by pursuing a career in the personal sector, at the same time, I would sacrifice much of the free-time that I have to decide whether I want to do other things or spend more time with my family. I currently have a split teaching schedule, this has allowed me time to make it to many kid functions that most other parents don't have the luxury of being able to do(for me this is fast approaching the grandparent phase). I also have a very lucrative retirement plan, great medical insurance, and other percs that make this job a good thing in the long-run. I mentioned the ability to have time that I could select for family functions or additional work/play. Most schools will consider your workload and offer you a contract based on that, if additional work is available or done they will generally take care of that by paying out on additional contracts, at least that's how it is at my institution. Additionally, I can go out into industry and work and by doing so I can maintain my teaching credentials, get paid additional monies, and also qualify for bumps in my pay schedule. Here again, I don't know if this applies at your school, yet it might, only in a slightly different manner.
     You mentioned not wanting to disappoint your instructor if you came to the conclusion that teaching wasn't for you. I bet that if you sit down with him and have an honest conversation about your reservations or concerns, that you will find that he sees in you the sorts of things that I have mentioned in this post and has a hope that you would find satisfaction and contentment in being an instructor, but if that wasn't the case he would tell you much the same, as other posters on this thread, that the experience certainly won't detract from your working resume. Another consideration here that you may not have even considered, teaching and teaching partnerships are like marriages, when you have welding programs or any other multi-instructor entities, a relationship forms that is almost like a family or a marriage. Your instructor might feel that bringing you on board with him is a good fit and one that the two of you can grow and better through your comforts and effective communications with one another. I have been very fortunate in that area, I am on my second teaching partner and in both cases I have been able to find a very comfortable common ground to operate within. Ultimately, you have the decision to pursue or go another route here, I'm sure, whichever way this ends up, you will be a positive asset to those who you end up interacting with. Done with the dissertation, good luck on your immediate future, and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-05-2009 09:51
Thanks for all the replies on this matter. Yeah, I understand it is my decision to be made, it's just figuring out which one. It sure is good to talk it out and hear different points of view from you guys though! The job is not there yet but he said it will be within a year and everything this new director said he wanted to do has been done. It was also mentioned that I could get my CWI as both the teachers now are going to be getting there's. Which will be another opportunity but as I told my teacher now, I sure need to learn more before I can do that.

Again, Thank you all for the replies and I'll keep on grinding the gears in my head.
Parent - - By jrod (**) Date 12-05-2009 15:04
If you do give it a try it would give more time to get your shorthood going while you are still drawing a check. Also you can get more hood time on someone elses dime.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-05-2009 16:02
yeah, that has crossed my mind jrod could be doing tig everything to get better without the cost and your right about the shorthood.
Parent - By chris2698 (****) Date 12-05-2009 21:08
jrod has a point here why the hell not do this because by teaching others you're teaching yourself as well and putting that shorhood together
Parent - By NWPAwelder (**) Date 12-07-2009 19:27
I say go for it. It's an awesome opportunity all the way around!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-07-2009 21:55
Shawn

Lots of great advice on your thread here.

Just watching your posts here over time you sure seem like a good communicator and a level headed guy..  A thing some *great* welders who try to become teachers do not have.

Do the current faculty members have high level theory and skills to help mentor you, and do they seem willing to do it?

Are the current instructors (and you if you become faculty) given opportunity for skills enhancement?  sent to training for inspection or process and stuff like that?

Lots of folks get great satisfaction out of teaching... If you find after you give it a try that you don't,,,,, you will still hit the bricks alot better than you are now eh?

Feel free to drop me an email with any type of question you have on your mind.

Lar
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 12-10-2009 04:21
I've been thinking about it and the decision is right in there. I think if I did the teaching and sending guys off to the pipeliners, boilermakers or starting up their own rigs and hearing what they are doing I would end up regreting my decision to stay local and teach. I'm not sure that the challenges I seek personally could be found in the teaching end. I know there would be hurtles but I have always pushed myself and even volunteered for some off the wall stuff as a mechanic cause nobody else would and I figured it would be a challenge, make me think and so on. My tig has come along, got my teacher dropping open mouth "Wow's!!" on my hot/filler and cap passes and it makes me excited and enjoy tig that much more to see myself progress. Now that my carbon steel tig is coming along I'm looking at all the stainless outside and my mind starts thinking about tackling that when I really get where I can just lay the beads on the steel. Still tossing the idea around about teaching but there's just so much more out there to learn in the field.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 12-10-2009 22:12
what ever makes you happy is what's best. Both my parents were teachers and while I love teaching at the same time it's not a job for everyone.

oh and when it comes to stainless steel. Welds like butter, runs much smoother IMO than carbon steels, and no silica chasing around. It's my favourite metal to weld, just don't let it oxidize.  If you can weld CS you should have no problem with SS
Parent - By The Ruffian (**) Date 12-08-2009 04:23
Pray.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / My dilemma

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