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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Argon...Helium...which is "hotter", yes this is a trick ?
- - By aevald (*****) Date 12-04-2009 01:39 Edited 12-04-2009 01:55
Hello folks, had a discussion with a number of students today stemming from a test question on a weld final. The test question was along the lines of this: Which of the following shielding gases gives the highest arc temperature? They had the following choices: argon, helium, argon-helium mix, none of these.
     After reading this question and taking note of the answer key's choice I have come to the conclusion that this is a really poor test question for starters and I also possibly believe that there could be more to this than just a simple answer. My own experiences and information that I have been subjected to over the years tells me that helium should be the answer, yet the answer key has argon listed as the correct choice.
     Here is where I am not sure whether there is a "trick" to this question. I am wondering if they are considering "highest temperature" as opposed to "greatest degree of energy transfer" to be the deciding factor here. I base this on a comparison between temperature and BTU's, an oxy-acet torch can have a higher temperature than an oxy-propane torch, yet the oxy-propane set-up can generate more BTU's.
     Looking for some of the Physics experts here to help me out a bit. I have tried going through the reference materials that I have on hand and also did a bit on online searching, but I haven't been able to nail down anything concrete to either support or disprove these ideas. Looking forward to hearing ideas from others. Thanks and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-04-2009 03:19 Edited 12-04-2009 03:54
Allan, I am far from an expert.

The Esab "Mig Welding Handbook" says "the thermal conductivity of helium and C02 is much higher than that of argon; because of this they deliver more heat to the weld. Therefore, helium and C02 require more welding voltage and power to maintain the arc."

If You are using watts [volts x amps] to measure energy, or heat input I think argon would be lower.

HOWEVER as You mentioned, heat and temperature are 2 different animals, as there is more heat in a frozen lake than in a plasma cutter arc, but the arc is much hotter.

Based on the lower thermal conductivity of the argon, perhaps the arc itself IS hotter than the others, as less heat is being conducted to the work.

This seems to be a trick question, as procedures specify HEAT INPUT, not arc temperature.

Clear as mud.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 12-04-2009 03:29
Hello Dave, thanks for taking the time to give some input. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-04-2009 13:36
I think you guys are on the right track. The problem is the definition of the word 'hot'.
I also think the density of argon gas and its plasma column would have a very real temperature effect. If the same energy is being imposed within a smaller volume of space the temperature, I would assume, would be greater.
Its a poorly written question. It requires some context which isn't available in a test question.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-04-2009 14:28
Hello Gerald, I am beginning to believe it is exactly as you folks have said....... simply a poorly worded question. Although I would still like to have a more complete understanding of the overall mechanics/physics of the different effects of helium/argon. Thanks again and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-04-2009 16:26
This is a great thread..

I'm learning a thing or two here.

Sorry I can't contribute.. its over my head  :)
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-04-2009 16:42
C'mon Larry??? Just kidding friend!!! :) :) :)

I'm still working on my dissertation on this very question, so when I'm finished, I'll copy and paste here for everyone to review... Oh I almost forgot, I hope you folks have some time later to read it becausei t's going to be a doozy - CAPECHE??? In the meantime, I need to take care of some errands, so until then - See ya! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-04-2009 16:55
Hello Henry, I'll be waiting to see what you come up with. Thanks for taking the time. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-05-2009 18:14
Well here it is Allan! I hope you can make sense of it for your students...

I concur as well that it is a poorly worded question, and please allow me to elaborate further if I may... The question is asking this:
"Which of the following shielding gases gives the highest arc temperature? They had the following choices: argon, helium, argon-helium mix, none of these."
First off, this question immediately raises other questions in my mind, and the first one that comes to mind is: Well, which welding process are they referring to, because I hope that this question doesn't simply imply that it pertains to all of the arc welding processes that use a shielding gas to protect the molten pool from contamination of the surrounding air in the atmosphere as well as to aid in transferring electrons from the power source across the air gap in order to establish as well as maintain & sustain the arc, and providing a certain type of heat transfer, arc temperature, removal of certain surface oxides, etc.

Having said that, it sure does make things a bit more complicated than when we first looked at the question initially don't you think?
Okay! So, let’s look at it from the point of view as written in The Welding Handbook Volume One - "Welding Technology" 8th Edition published by the AWS. As we read on page 43 in the "Physics of welding" chapter under the heading of: "Arc Characteristics" Starting from "Definitions" It states:

For all practical purposes, a welding arc can be considered a gaseous conductor which changes electrical energy into heat. The arc is the heat source for many welding processes because it produces a high intensity of heat and is easy to control through electrical means. Arcs are sources of radiation as well as heat sources. When used in welding processes, an arc may help remove surface oxides in addition to supplying heat. The arc also influences the mode of transfer of metal from the electrode to the work.
A welding arc is a particular group of electrical discharges that are formed and sustained by the development of a gaseous conduction medium. The current carriers for the gaseous medium are produced by thermal means and field emission. Many kinds of welding arcs have been conceived, each with a unique application in the field of metal joining, In some cases, the welding arc is a steady state device. More frequently, it is intermittent, subject to interruptions by electrical short circuiting, or continuously unsteady (This word is written as “nonsteady”), being influenced by an alternating directional flow of current or by a turbulent flow of the conducting gas medium.

THE PLASMA

The arc current is carried by a plasma, the ionized state of gas composed of nearly equal numbers of electrons and ions. The electrons, which support most of the current conduction, flow out of a negative terminal (Cathode) and move toward a positive terminal (Anode). Mixed with the plasma are other states of matter, including molten metals, slags, vapors, neutral and excited gaseous atoms, and molecules. The establishment of the neutral plasma state by thermal means, that is, by collision processes, requires the attainment of equilibrium temperatures according to the ionization potential of the material from which the plasma is produced. The formation of the plasma is governed by an extended concept of the Ideal Gas Law and The Law of Mass Action… Note: I will insert the  equation @ a later time.
The particle densities of three kinds of particles can be determined by assuming the plasma is electrically neutral and that the ions have a single positive charge. Then the number of electrons is equal to the number of ions.

The expression of thermal equilibrium of the heated gas in an arc means that all kinetics and reactions of the particles in a microvolume may be represented by the same temperature. Thermal equilibrium in welding arcs is closely approached, but may be considered only approximate because of the influence of dominant processes of energy transport, including radiation, heat conduction, convection, and diffusion. The heated gas of the arc attains a maximum temperature of between 5000 and 50,000 K, depending on the kind of gas and the intensity of the current carried by the plasma.

The degree of ionization is between 1 and 100 percent; complete ionization is based on all particles being at a temperature corresponding to the first ionization potential. The attainment of a very close approximation to thermal equilibrium is more questionable in the region near to the arc terminals, where current conducting electrons are accelerated so suddenly by a high electric field that the required number of collisions does not occur. It is in the arc terminal regions that an explanation of current conduction based wholly on thermal ionization is insufficient and must be augmented by the theory of field emission or some other concept.

TEMPERATURE

Measured values of welding arc temperatures normally fall between 5000 and 30,000K, depending on the nature of the plasma and the current conducted by it. As a result of a high concentration of easily ionized materials such as sodium and potassium that are incorporated in the coating of covered electrodes (SMAW), the maximum temperature of a shielded metal arc is about 6000K.

In pure inert gas arcs, the axial temperature may approach 30,000 k. Some special arcs of extreme power loading may attain an axial temperature of 50,000 K. In most cases, the temperature of the arc is determined by measuring the spectral radiation emitted. The temperature attainable in arcs is limited by heat leakage rather than by a theoretical limit. The energy losses (Due to heat conduction, diffusion, convection, and radiation) characteristic of an arc plasma of specific composition and mass flow are in balance with the electrical power input. The energy losses from arcs vary in a complex way according to the magnitude of the temperatures and the influences of thermal conduction, convection, and radiation.

Figure 2.4 Thermal Conductivity of Some Representative Gases as a Function of Temperature shows in the graph that with argon, as the temperature rises in increments of 103  K will go up to 30,000K and have a thermal conductivity, ERG . CM-1 . SEC-1 . K-1 of approximately 5. With Helium at the same temperature of 30,000 K, the thermal conductivity goes all the way up on the chart to a little over 13 and just short of 14. Quite a significant difference I might add! The data shown for hydrogen and nitrogen indicated peaks due to the effect of thermal dissociation and association of the molecular and atomic forms (H2 &2H, and N2&2N) respectively.

RADIATION

The amount and character of radiation emitted by arcs depend upon the atomic mass and chemical structure of the gas, the temperature, and the pressure. Spectral analysis of arc radiation may show banks lines and continua. The analysis of radiation from organic type covered electrodes shows molecular bands revealing the existence of vibrational and rotational states, as well as line and continuum emissions from excited and ionized states. The inert gas arcs radiate predominantly by atomic excitation and ionization. As the energy input to the arcs increases, higher states of ionization occur, giving radiation of higher levels.

Radiation loss of energy may be over 20% of the total input in the case of argon welding arcs, while in other welding gases the radiation loss is not more than 10%. Intense radiation in the ultraviolet, visible, and infrared wavelengths is emitted by all exposed welding arcs. Ultraviolet radiation from argon shielded arcs is particularly strong because of mass effects and because little or no self-absorption occurs within the plasma volume.

ELECTRICAL FEATURES

A welding arc is an impedance to the flow of current, as are all normal conductors of electricity. The specific impedance is inversely proportional to the density of the charge carriers, and their mobility, with the total impedance depending on the radial and axial distribution of carrier density. The plasma column impedance is a function of temperature, but generally not in the regions of the arc near its terminals. The electrical power dissipated in each of the three spaces or regions of the arc is the product of the current flowing and the potential across the region. The current and potential across each region are expressed according to:

P = I(Ei + Ec + Ep)
Where:
P = power, W
Ec = anode voltage, V
Ec = cathode voltage, V
Ep = Plasma voltage, V
I = current, A

The regions are referred to as the cathode fall space, the plasma column fall space, and the anode fall space. However, there are intermediate region taken up in expanding or contracting the cross section of the gaseous conductor to accommodate each main region. As a consequence, the welding arcs assume bell or coned shapes, including the configuration of the arc terminals, gravitational and magnetic forces ,and interactions between plasma and ambient pressures,. The area over which the current flows into the arc terminals (anode and cthode spots) has a strong effect on the arc configuration and on the flow of heat energy into these terminals.

The current density at the workpiece terminal is of utmost importance to the size and shape of the fusion zone, and to the depth of fusion in a welded joint. The total potential of an arc falls with increasing current and rises again with a further increase in current. The decrease in total arc potential with increasing current can be attributed to a growth of thermal ionization and thermally induced electron emission at the arc cathode. The total potential of arcs generally increases as the spacing between the arc terminals increase. Because the arc column is continually losing charge carriers by radial migration to the cool boundary of the arc, lengthening the arc exposes more of the arc column to the cool boundary, imposing a greater requirement on the charge carrier maintenance. To accommodate this loss of energy and maintain stability, the applied voltage must be increased.

Much of the foregoing concerned the plasma column which is best understood. Although the mechanisms effective at the arc terminals have even more importance in welding arcs, they are less understood. The arc terminal materials must, in most cases, provide the means for achieving a continuity of conduction across the plasma column.

It is essential that the cathode material provide electrons by emission of sufficient density to carry the current. In the GTAW process, the tungsten electrode is chosen because it readily emits electrons when only a portion of the electrode tip is molten. Other cathode materials that are melted and transferred through the arc must also provide sufficient density of electrons to carry the arc current. In the case of consumable electrodes, additives in the form of coatings may be used to insure stable spatter-free transfer.

We’ll skip INFLUENCES OF MAGNETIC FIELDS IN THE ARC, and ARC BLOW found on pages 47thru 49 and start again on page 50 with;
METAL TRANSFER

Consumable electrode arc welding processes are used extensively because filler metal is deposited more efficiently and at higher rates than is possible with other welding processes. To be most effective, the filler metal needs to be transferred from the electrode with small losses due to spatter. Furthermore, uncontrolled short circuits between the electrode and the work should be avoided; otherwise, the welder or welding operator will have difficulty controlling the process.

In the case of the GMAW process, arc instability caused by erratic transfer can generate pressure fluctuations that draw air into the vicinity of the arc. So much care should be taken in order to properly “dial in” the optimal parameters when setting up this process regardless of the mode of metal transfer as well as maintaining as close to the optimal ESO (Electrode Stick Out) , CTWD (Contact Tip to Work Distance), and work & travel angles, and travel speed also.

The different types of transfer have been studied with motion pictures and by analysis of the short circuit oscillograms. Transfer through the arc stream of covered electrodes can be characterized as globular (massive drops) or as a showery spray (Large number of small drops). These modes are rarely found alone. More generally, material is transferred in some combination of both.

Transfer with the GMAW process varies greatly when used with argn shielding. When the current is above the transition level, the transfer mechanism can be best described as an axial spray, and short circuits are nonexistent. However, when helium or an active gas such as carbon dioxide is used for shielding, the transfer is globular, and some short circuiting is unavoidable. The GMAW short circuiting arc process has been adapted to use only short circuits for the transfer of metal to the pool.

The physics of metal transfer in arc welding is not well understood. The arcs are too small, and their temperatures too high for easy study, and metal transfers at high rates. Because of the difficulty involved in establishing the mechanisms that regulate the process, a great number of mechanisms have been suggested. These forces have been considered:

1)  Pressure generated by the evolution of gas at the electrode tip.
2)  The electrostatic attraction between electrodes.
3)  Gravity.
4)  The “pinch effect” caused by electromagnetic forces on the tip of the electrode.
5)  Explosive evaporation of the necked filament between the drop and electrode due to the very high density of the conducting current.
6)  Electromagnetic action produced by a divergence of current in the plasma around the drop.
7)  Friction effects of the plasma jet.

In all probability, a combination of these forces functions to detach the liquid drop from the end of the electrode.

EFFECT OF POLARITY ON METAL TRANSFER IN ARGON

At low welding currents in argon, liquid metal from the electrode is transferred in the form of drops having a diameter greater than that of the electrode. With electrode positive, the drop size is roughly inversely proportional to the current, and the drops are released at the rate of a few per second. With a sufficiently long arc to minimize short circuits, drop transfer is reasonably stable and associated with a relative absence of spatter.

Above critical current level, however the characteristics of this transfer change to the axial spray mode. In axial spray transfer, the tip of the electrode becomes pointed, and minute drops are transferred at a rate of hundreds per second. The current at which this occurs is called the transition current. Often, as is in the case of steel, this change is very abrupt.

The axial spray transfer is unique not only because of its good stability but also because of the absence of spatter. Furthermore, the drops are transferred in line with the electrode rather than along the shortest path between the electrode and the workpiece. The metal, therefore, can be directed where needed when making vertical or overhead welds.

The key to spray transfer is in the pinch effect which automatically squeezes the drops off the electrode. This occurs as a result of the electromagnetic effects (Lorentz force) of the current. The transition current is dependent on a number of variables, including the electrode composition, diameter, electrode extension, and the shielding gas composition. A great difference in transition current is found with various metal systems.

The transition current is approximately proportional to the diameter as shown in Figure 2.15 which at this time I will not include in here because I want to stay focused on the question as much as possible without going into too much detail on something else.

Transition current is not dependent on current density, but is mildly dependent on the electrode extension. An increase in the extension allows a slight decrease in the current at which spray transfer develops. [In practical welding operations, electrode extension is usually 13 to 25 mm (1/2 to 1 inch) depending on the diameter size used].
I n GMAW of steels, the spray transfer arc mode is most often used with argon-based shielding gas. Small additions of oxygen to the shielding gas lower the transition current slightly while CO2 additions raise it. The transition current defines the lower limit of useful current for spray transfer.

At high welding current densities, a rotary arc mode takes place. With appropriate mixtures of shielding gases, wire feeding controls, and welding guns that perform well at high wire feed speeds, rotating transfer mode GMAW can be used to deposit 7kg/h (16lbs/h) or more steel weld metal. The useful upper current limit is the value where the rotational arc becomes unstable with loss of puddle control and high amounts of spatter.

The welding current at which axial spray disappears and rotational spray begins is proportional to the electrode diameter and varies inversely with electrode extension. Spray transfer can also be achieved at average current levels below the transition current using pulsed welding current. One or more drops of filler metal are transferred at a frequency of the current pulses. This technique increases the useful operating range of a given electrode size.

Solid state power sources that simplify the set up for pulsed power welding have increased the applications of pulsed spray welding. The relatively low average current levels permit out-of position welding of steel at relatively high deposition rates. It is also utilized for aluminum welding with larger diameter electrodes and lower average currents and wire feed rates.

ELECTRODE NEGATIVE

The GMAW process is normally used with direct current electrode positive power. When the electrode is negative, the arc becomes unstable, and spatter is excessive. The drop size is large, and arc forces propel the drops away from the workpiece. This action appears to result from a low rate of electron emission from the negative electrode. If the thermionic properties of the electrode are enhanced by light coatings of alkali metal compounds, metal transfer is significantly improved. Although the use of emissive coatings allows spray transfer in GMAW with DCEN, commercial filler metals are not generally available with such coatings.

Now I know that some want me to probably focus on the effects of other gases besides argon as they relate to the GTAW process, but that would only limit this discussion to only one process, and as one can already notice that the effects of argon and other gases such as helium and CO2 are equally important to study in depth as well as they relate to the GMAW process with its different modes of metal transfer also.

EFFECT OF OTHER GASES ON METAL TRANSFER

Although helium is inert, it is unlike argon for shielding a welding arc because it does not usually produce an axial spray arc. Instead, the transfer is globular at all current levels and with both polarities. Helium shielded arcs are useful, nevertheless, because they provide deep penetration. Spray transfer is produced in helium by mixing relatively small quantities of argon with it. Using dilute mixtures, the deep penetration is not adversely changed. Although 20 percent argon in helium is sufficient to achieve these results, the normal commercial mixtures contain 25% argon as an insurance factor. Argon-helium mixtures are used for welding nonferrous metals such as Aluminum and Copper. Generally, the thicker the material to be joined, the higher the percentage of helium in the shielding gas is used.

Active gases such as carbon dioxide and nitrogen are much like helium in their effects on the arc. Spray transfer cannot be achieved without treatment of the wire surface, In addition, greater instabilities in the arc and chemical reactions between the gas and superheated metal drops cause considerable spatter. The difficulty with spatter can be minimized by welding with the buried arc technique. This technique is common when Carbon Dioxide is used to shield Copper, and when Nitrogen is mixed with argon to shield Aluminum alloys.To offset the harsh globular transfer and spatter associated with CO2 shielding, Argon may be added to stabilize the arc and improve metal transfer characteristics. Short circuiting transfer is optimized using mixtures of 20 to 25% CO2 in Argon. Higher percentages of CO2 are used for joining thick steel plate.
Small amounts of Oxygen (2to5%) or carbon dioxide (5 to 10%) are added to Argon to stabilize the arc, alter the spray transition current, and improve wetting and bead shape. These mixtures are commonly used for welding steel.

At this time, we will skip the rest of page 52 in the book and instead, advance to page 58 where we will continue with:

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES OF METALS AND SHIELDING GASES

The physical properties of the metals or alloys being joined influence the efficiency and the applicability of the various joining processes. The nature and properties of the shielding gases and of the contaminants from the atmosphere may have pronounced effect on the resulting weld. The shielding gases may be generated either by the decomposition of fluxing materials or by direct introduction into the arc stream and the area surrounding the arc plasma. Both thermal conductivity and thermal expansion have a direct effect on distortion of the weldment. Base metal electrical resistivity and thermal conductivity have a pronounced effect on the application of both resistance and arc welding to the various metals, In the case of resistance welding, base metal resistivity, thermal conductivity, and specific heat influence the power requirements.

In the case of arc welding, arc starting and arc stability are greatly influenced by the ionization potentials of the metal and flux vapors as well as by the various electronic transitions that occur in the shielding gases under the extreme temperature conditions that exist in the arc. The thermionic work function of the electrode material, and to a lesser extent, that of the materials being welded, have direct bearing upon the efficiency of the energy transferred by the welding arc. Electrical resistivity also plays an important role in these processes as a result of resistance heating of the electrode between the contact tube or the electrode holder and the work. Resistance heating of the electrode may be an important contribution to the total energy input to the weld zone.

Weld bead shape is dependent to varying degrees upon the interfacial energy between the surrounding atmosphere and the molten metal. The surrounding atmosphere may consist either of a gas or a liquid flux. Elements in the surrounding medium may control the shape of the bead.

Another important material property that should be considered when determining the relative weldability of alloys is the rate of oxidation of the base metal. This rate is important in determining the degree of shielding required. A corollary to this is the relative stability of oxides that may be present. The specific heat and density of the shielding gases affect the heat of the arc and the shielding coverage.

So, if we look at table 2.10 titled:
Physical properties of shielding gases, we can see the differences between N2, Ar, He, H2, and CO2 respectively. However for the purpose of focusing on the question which only asks which of the two shielding gases, Ar, or He are “Hotter”? I will just list the physical properties of these 2 elements instead of all 5.

We will start with                                 Argon               Helium
Molecular weight =                           39.948               4.0026
Normal boiling point @K =                   87.280               4.224
@C  =                                           185.88           - 268.94
@F  =                                           302.57           - 452.07
Density @ 21.1 C (70 F),
1 atm:
Note: I atm = One atmosphere.
kg/m3 =                                       -   1.656               0.1667
lb/ft3  =                                        -  0.1034             0.01041
Specific Volume
@ 21.1 C (70 F), 1 atm:
M3/kg =                                            0.6039             5.999
Ft3/lb =                                            9.671             96.06
Specific Gravity @ 12.1 C  =                 1.380              0.1389
Specific Heat Constant
Pressure @ 12.1 C, 1atm:
J/kg K =                                         521.3             5192
Btu/lb F =                                         0.1246             1.241
Specific Heat constant
Volume @21.1 C, 1 atm:
J/kg K =                                         312.1             3861
Btu/lb F =                                          0.0746             0.7448

In conclusion, one cannot simply answer the question properly without having other very important variables necessary in order to  choose the right answer… In other words, the question is incomplete!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 12-05-2009 19:54
Hello Henry, and thanks, as usual, for taking the time to very thoroughly look for, think through, and compile a very lengthy and complete overview. I will also have to read through this a number of times likely and try to come up with some points for consideration to project this information to those students who are interested. Certainly not a simply subject and full of variables, yet a topic that does have a direct influence on many aspects of our welding world. Thank you again Henry! Best regards, Allan
Parent - By rlitman (***) Date 12-04-2009 17:35
I too am waiting to hear what you have to say.  In thinking about it, there's a lot going on in this question. 

On first though, it involves the relative ionization potentials of each gas (which affects arc voltage), as well as their thermal conductance.  Additionally, argon, due to its density can be used at lower flow rates, which would make the gas hotter (but that's not really fair in an "all things being equal" argument).
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 12-04-2009 18:10
Somewhere in my arc physics text book there's a graph of shielding gasses, ionization potentials, and plasma temperature.  Helium is somewhere in the neighborhood of 14K and Argon is somewhere around 9K plasma temperature. So that's nice, but it's only the plasma, you still have the cathode and anode drop regions to consider, which contributes to overall transfer efficiency.  I would say you need to tweak your test question because there are too many variables. 
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-04-2009 18:22
Thank you Mike, that is pretty much the consensus that I came to, regarding the quality of the question. Now, I am curious to know the variables and other factors associated here so that I might share those with the students as well. For some folks simply being shown the results of things is sufficient, for others a more thorough and in-depth explanation helps them to see and understand more completely. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 12-04-2009 21:17 Edited 12-04-2009 21:20
For the purity of the art, I'd restrict your explanation to DC TIG, fixed arc length, constant current, no motion or wire feed.  Things like metal vapors screw with the arc plasma (decreased ionization potential) so gas shielded wire fed processes are a little more complex.  The amount of ionization will also affect temperature of the plasma and is described by Saha's Equation.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saha_ionization_equation

To put ionization potential in context to everything else in the periodic table, this is a pretty cool graph: http://www.chem.ufl.edu/~itl/2045_s99/change/C8F15.GIF
Page I pulled it from: http://www.chem.ufl.edu/~itl/2045_s99/lectures/lec_12.html

The attached is a scan from the page in my text book showing the graph I mentioned in my previous post. 
Attachment: 20091204170311.tif (699k)
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 12-04-2009 22:36
Hello Mike, I am mainly concerned with the GTAW process and explaining gas shielding and arc effects for that process. I briefly looked at some of the links and tables that you included....it's going to take a bit to digest and wrap myself around much of this information, thank you for taking the time to respond here once again. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 12-04-2009 22:05 Edited 12-04-2009 22:09
this is just some noodling off the top of my head so  correct me if I'm wrong.

but isn't the heat energy generated in an electric arc directly related to resistance of the working gas? As it was put to me Argon had a lower ionization potential, and resistance, therefore it took less energy to initiate and maintain an arc http://www.williams.edu/astronomy/research/PN/nebulae/ionpotentials.jpg    Ar=15, He =24

I also thought this played into the resulting profile of the arc and subsequent weld bead profile. Helium creates a deeper penetration profile because the higher resistance leads to a more narrow and "focused" plasma column.

of note the coefficient of thermal conduction for helium is roughly a factor of 10 greater than for Argon. Perhaps what they are implying albeit very poorly is that the hotter plasma temperature of a helium arc and high transfer efficiency creates a welding condition in which the heat input into the base metal is less per  Watt of electrical input. Therefore Argon runs "hotter" in the sense that you need to crank up the V and A to achieve the same energy input as He.  On a test I would never go with such an obtuse answer though.

these are just my assumptions based on a weak understanding and long forgotten explination of the principles.  The alternative answer is that whoever wrote the test, got the answer wrong which does happen from time to time.

Where's stephen? I haven't heard from him in awhile he would know.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-05-2009 19:56
Hello Metarinka, thank you as well for including additional information for this topic, as with the other responses I will likely be very busy digesting and trying to grasp all of these variables and bits of information. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 12-10-2009 23:25
ASM metals handbook volume 6, Welding Brazing soldering

is an amazing resource, I make it a habit to chapter whenever possible. I was reading through and came upon this passage. which is worded much better than I could

"The ionization potential is the energy, expressed in electron volts, necessary to remove an electron from a gas atom--
making it an ion, or an electrically charged gas atom. All other factors held constant, the value of the ionization potential
decreases as the molecular weight of the gas increases. Arc starting and arc stability are greatly influenced by the
ionization potentials of the component shielding gases used in welding process. A gas with a low ionization potential,
such as argon, can (turn) atoms into ions easily. Helium, with its significantly higher ionization potential, produces a harder to
start, less stable arc.

Although other factors are involved in sustaining the plasma, the respective energy levels required to ionize these gases
must be maintained; as a consequence, the arc voltage is directly influenced. For equivalent arc lengths and welding
currents, the voltage obtained with helium is appreciably higher than is with argon. This translates into more available
heat input to the base material with helium than with argon. "
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 12-10-2009 23:37
Hello Metarinka, thanks for including that information. I will certainly use this as well as the wealth of other information that everyone else has contributed. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 00:03 Edited 12-11-2009 02:06
It doesn't translate the same in every process or on a one to one ratio since after all, it takes twice the flow rate of helium in order to maintain as close to an equivalent ionization, and since the question was not process specific, one must consider many other variables before one comes to that conclusion. So I wouldn't make it a blanket statement for every situation or circumstance.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-11-2009 01:44
Hello Henry, I understand what you are saying and have come to understand that all of the scenarios that these principles can apply to have many different variables. Thanks and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 02:00 Edited 12-11-2009 02:04
Hi Allan! I'm sure glad that you understand what I'm saying because lately some folks in here tend to read too much into what I write in here these days, and it tends to "muddy the waters" so to speak but then again, I have to remember that not everybody practices the K.I.S.S method of communication these days either, and some are clueless as to what the abbreviation even means... I sincerely hope that you and your family have a safe and wonderful Christmas as well as a Happy new Year as well old friend! ;) And may you enjoy as many Sunsets the good lord may give you the opportunity to experience Allan!!! :) :) :)

P.S. Did you see those strange lights off the Norwegian coast, or somewhere around the Scandinavian Peninsula and I'm not talking about the Aurora Borealis either, even though they are very spectacular also???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 12-11-2009 03:30
Hello Henry, thank you for the well wishes, I hope you are also having a great time during this holiday season. I am not familiar with the lights that you have mentioned in your post, I'll have to get the old search engine fired up and see about checking those out, thanks for the heads-up. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 12:40

>P.S. Did you see those strange lights off the Norwegian coast, or somewhere around the Scandinavian Peninsula and I'm not talking about the Aurora Borealis either, even though they are very spectacular also???


Hey Henry, check out this link, it explains "the lights"
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5B92FI20091210?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20reuters/worldNews%20(News%20/%20US%20/%20International)
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 16:14
Ahaaaahh!!! Very interesting John! ;)

That's probably some of the chemicals from their solid rocket fuel burning up at a stationary location in the sky causing all of those unusual colors and then the moon reflecting some of the sun's rays into the area where all those chemicals have dispersed into the atmosphere, and everything else being what it was at the time after the self-destruct order was given... yeah! It sure does make snese that something like that could indeed be the result of the Russians trying to play catch-up with us... I've heard of the problems they were having with this sea based version of their newest mobile missile land based intercontinental known in the west as the "Topal" or something like that...

What I don't understand is the fact that the sea based version is being designed and tested by a totally different entity than the folks who designed, tested and are currently producing the "Topal" which for all intended purposes is supposed to be the same missile only adapted for being able to be launched from the sea instead of a land based mobile launching system... It's bewildering to me why the Russians do not simply hand over the project over to the entity that was successful in developing and deploying the land based version in the first place!!! Oh well, I guess that's Russian politics for you! ;) Thanks for the link John! And if I don't "hear" from you before the Christmas week, I would like to take this opportunity to wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year as well!!! :) :) :) Oh and Allan I apologize if this thread went off in a different direction than it's original course! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

R
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-11-2009 03:36
The problem is that the test question asks about "arc temperature" which is irrelevant to welding proceses.

Heat input, which can be of  consequence, is what all the data is about, and is not mentioned in the test question.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 06:03 Edited 12-11-2009 15:55
Hi Dave!
It is definitely relevant to the welding process as well as other factors as well since each welding process has a separate maximum arc temperature and in the GMAW process alone there are more than one form of metal transfer which depending on which one that it is being set to has either a higher or lower arc temperature which can also be easily changed depending on what type of shield ing mix is being used as well as the metal that is being welded also, so it's not so cut and dry as one may want to think, and in one of my posts it describes it as such Dave... You may want to re-read the post with the information I wrote based from The Welding Handbook, 8th edition, Volume one published by the AWS.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 17:31 Edited 12-11-2009 17:34
Sure is a whole lotta editing goin on in this thread.
Ya'll might wanna reference your library BEFORE you type.

Just kidddin.  :)

EditEditEditEditEditEditEdit
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 17:48
Surely you jest! :) :) :) Merry Christmas Jeff and the same goes for your family as well and Happy New Year Too!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 12-11-2009 18:44
I wish you, your family, and all in this forum and their families a Merry Christmas.
Another year coming to a close. A few more gray hairs.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-12-2009 03:49
I decided to edit todays post, just for good measure.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-12-2009 03:36 Edited 12-12-2009 03:48
Perhaps I chose My words poorly.

Is arc temperature specified in any welding procedure You ever read?
Is arc temperature an essential value in any code You know of?
On these new computerized machines is there a setting for arc temperature?

I think Allan did say this was in regard to TIG welding.

We all agree that helium will put more heat into the work.

Welding Handbook Volume 1, 7th edition page 53 shows fig.2.3-isothermal map of an argon-tungsten arc.
This shows quite a difference in temperature from the electrode end to the work end of the arc.

If a similar chart was given for helium and argon/helium mix under the same conditions We would have the answer to Allan's original question concerning the test question. If such charts exist, You will be the guy to find them.

Mike Meyer's post on 12/4 has an attachment that says: "Thus helium arcs are much hotter than argon arcs" "helium produces the hottest arcs" This is based on the ionization potential, but there are no isothermal maps to show the actual arc temperatures, or their distribution.
If this link is right, the answer key is wrong.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-12-2009 14:55 Edited 12-12-2009 15:50
At twice the flow rate Dave. :) If you use the same flow rate as you would with argon, the arc temp will not be the same... In fact, you need close to twice the flow rate to achieve a higher arc temperature with helium than with argon being used at a lower flow rate in comparison. ;)

Usually, Helium is mixed with argon (depending on what metal is being welded, there's always a higher ratio of argon in the mix) in order not to use as much helium, yet still produce a high arc temperature than one would achieve if either argon or helium by themselves would be used at the same flow rates as one would normally set for argon alone... Resulting in a more fluid pool, and greater penetration as well than with argon alone and better arc stability than one would experience using only helium. :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 12-11-2009 20:22 Edited 12-11-2009 20:37
The problem with Heat Input is that it's a derived number (V, I, and TS make up HI) which ignores about 8 million of the pertinent variables related to a welding process (like plasma gas) and really means little when you start playing with the individual effects of each variable and how each one effects grain growth, bead shape, distortion and all that fun stuff.  See attached scan from Jackson's Adam's Lecture, mainly the table at the top and the picture in the upper right. 

http://img187.imageshack.us/i/heatinput.jpg/
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-12-2009 15:55
Good stuff Mike! Thanks!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 12-13-2009 00:48 Edited 12-13-2009 08:05
Dear Allan,

longer time ago since I’ve been here.

Then, finding a minute to take a breath and making a short sidestep into the worlds largest welding forum (© Henry), I directly bump into this – your – wonderful question.

And yes… it’s ‘tricky’, but rather less a ‘trick’.

Instead of asking: “Which of the following shielding gases gives the highest arc temperature?”, perhaps the question should have been asked like:

“Which of the following shielding gases gives the highest electrical conductivity?”

Then, I am sure all of your students have answered: Argon. And in this coherence one could have said. The better the electrical conductivity, the less the resistance and the higher - eventually - the kinetic energy input to the work.

Great information, to say the least, coming from all of the appreciated fellows. In particular I mean however, the key lies in two specific sections of Henry’s ‘dissertation’. That is where he states:

[quote]

“Well, which welding process are they referring to,…”

[unquote]

and:

[quote]

P = I(Ei + Ec + Ep)
Where:
P = power, W
Ec = anode voltage, V
Ec = cathode voltage, V
Ep = Plasma voltage, V
I = current, A

[unquote].

Let’s suppose we are dealing with GTAW and the tremendous number of variables, when it comes to an inclusion of metal vapours etc., shall be neglected.

Then we should transform the expression of Henry into the expression derived by SCHOECK et al in 1963 [1], saying that the total energy input Q is:

Q = I (Va+VKT+Vw)

I  = Welding current
Va   = Voltage drop
Vw   = Anode work function
VKT  = Thermal plasma energy

This expression has now been used by GLICKSTEIN [2] who has thoroughly investigated the physical background of different thermal effects of different shielding gases (Ar, He, Ar+He, He+Ar, Ar+Al-vapour, He+Al-vapour).

Hence, let me hereafter state what GLICKSTEIN has found out by his own and by using the results of many other famous researchers.
The secret lies in the gaseous properties of Argon and Helium. It is well-known that the main portion of the kinetic energy in arc welding is carried by electrons. Thus, according to GLICKSTEIN, it may be supposed that the current density distribution ‘determines the distribution of the energy input to the weldment’. He explains that Argon has – due to the lower ionisation potential vs. Helium – a ‘higher electrical conductivity at lower temperatures’. Anyway, Helium again has a lower mass and thus, he describes Helium to have a higher thermal conductivity vs. Argon. GLICKSTEIN has investigated a 100 A GTAW arc and has calculated – based on experimental measurements – the electric fields for both gases as 15 V/cm for Helium and 7.7 V/cm for Argon. Thereby he explains the ‘broader and higher arc discharge temperature distribution’ for a Helium arc compared with an Argon arc. This, due to the so-called ‘energy source term’ is based on the temperature dependent thermal conductivity (sigma) and the square of the electric field (E) or:

Sigma(T)*E²

what again is explained to increase the radial energy transfer. And this, we all know from the practice, is true, since a Helium arc shows a more ‘diffuse’ appearance compared with an Argon arc. Thus, we may confirm what such great people like GLICKSTEIN et al have theoretically established long ago.

So far so good. To explain the differences in both energy and temperature distribution in a 100 A Argon and Helium arc it is provided that the values for the variables in the first expression, as stated above, are:

Va_Ar ~ 2.99 eV (anode drop for Argon)
Va_He~ 4.71 eV (anode drop for Helium)
Vw   ~ 4.5 eV (work function of Tungsten)
VKT  ~ 1.2 eV (thermal plasma energy)

Now one can calculate:

Q_Ar   = I * (2.99 + 1.2 + 4.5) = 8.69 * I

Q_He   = I * (4.71 + 1.2 + 4.5) = 10.41 * I

For a given current one obtains thus an approximately 20% higher thermal energy input for a Helium arc compared with an Argon arc.

So, one may conclude, that no really significant difference in the ‘temperature’ between an Argon and a Helium GTAW arc has been found. But a quite significant distinction in the energy content of both arcs could be evaluated. To emphasize this, I would like to directly quote GLICKSTEIN [2]:

“The greater energy input associated with the helium welding arc compared to an argon arc at the same current does not result from a ‘hotter’ temperature as commonly believed. Experimental measurements of the electric fields and analysis of the potential drop associated with each gas discharge show that the greater energy of helium can be attributed to a larger anode drop potential relative to that of argon arcs.”

Nicely said and truly hitting the famous nail on the head.

Isn't it good that the world has so tremendously intelligent people like Glickstein, Schoeck et al..?

Stephan

References:

[1] Schoeck, P.A. (1963), “An investigation of the anode energy balance of high intensity arcs in argon”, in: Ibele, W. (Ed.), Modern developments in heat transfer, Academic Press, New York and London, p.353-478

[2] Glickstein, S.S., (1980), “Arc modelling for welding analysis”, in Arc Physics and Weld Pool Behaviour Conference Proceedings, Vol. 1, 8–10 May 1980, London, The Welding Institute, Cambridge, p. 1-8   

EDIT: I did forget. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you, Allan, and to all of the others!
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-14-2009 17:03
Hello Stephan, good to hear from you and as usual you have taken a lot of time and effort to provide a host of information. As with the other posts provided by so many, it's going to take some time to digest all of it and wrap my brains around the information. Family, holidays, and work are taking up a lot of my time lately, so not quite as much time for the forum, all the same I will "eventually" get to looking through all of this more specifically and hopefully come up with an accurate and relatively compressed explanation for the students who are interested. I hope that life has been treating you and your family well and I hope you will have plenty of time to enjoy Christmas with your family, best regards, Allan
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 12-16-2009 23:45
Allan,

a heartfelt 'Thanks!' to you for both, making my day at that time with your wonderful question and your kind wishes!

I wish you and the yours all the very best for now and of course for 2010!

I look forward to find time someday to increase my number of visits again to the 'world's greatest welding forum' (© Henry - ssbn727)!

Stephan
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 12-14-2009 17:26
Stephan,
Where you been? I knew this was one for you.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 12-16-2009 23:50
Jeff!

Appreciated fellow and God of Stainless Steel Welding!

It was, it was... :-)

Please see my reply to Allan.

May the Almighty Lord give that I will be able someday, to explain what's going on with me at the moment!

Have a wonderful Christmas and all the Best for 2010!

Take good care of yourself,
Stephan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-18-2009 06:56 Edited 12-22-2010 08:42
The late Howard B.Cary summed it up pretty well when wrote this:

"Several properties of gases have an effect on welding. Most of the gases are nontoxic but are an asphyxiant, meaning that a concentration of this gas will create suffocation due to the absence of oxygen. too much oxygen, or too much Nitrogen in the breathing atmosphere will cause damage to humans.

The specific ravity relates to the weight of the gas with respect to air. The specific gravity of air is !. Lightweight gases such as Helium float away and will not be an efficient shield. Heavier gases will displace air in enclosed spaces or areas.

Thermal conductivity relates to the heat in the arc column and whether it wil create a small or large arc column; also, how fast the heat will travel in the gas.

Ionization potential establishes the ease of arc initiation and arc stability. The lower the ionization potential, the easier it is to start the arc. The higher the ionization potential, the hotter the arc, yet the harder it is to initiate the arc, and to keep it stable up to a certain point... After passing that point of ignition, and as long as there are no sudden changes in the arc column, the arc will remain stable and hotter with helium...

This will not work in a manual application, and will only work in a mechanized/automated system application.

This is also why certain ration mixes of both argon and helium are used to capture the best of both of these gases individual characteristics depending on the application."

Two other important factors/ characteristics in shielding gases are pointed out by Howard B. Cary here:

"Gases are diatomic or monatomic. A diatomic gas demonstrates disassociation of the molecules in the arc. This process absorbs heat energy, followed by recombination away from the arc, which releases latent heat. Monatomic gases do not disassociate in the arc...

The most important characteristic of a shielding gas is it's purity. In all cases the purity must exceed 99%."

With respect to helium in a GTAW arc, it has the highest Ionization potential of any shielding gas, and for this reason a Gas Tungsten Arc in helium has an extremely high arc voltage. Because of this, arcs in an atmosphere of Helium produce a greater amount of heat... However, Helium's light weight causes it to float away from the arc zone, producing an inefficient shield unless higher flow rates are employed."

Then he talks about welding with different gases... Argon plus Helium: "With the higher percentages of Helium, the speed and quality of AC welding of Aluminum is improved. The 25% Argon, 75% helium mixture is used GTA hot wire variation welding." Pages 432 ,433, 436 of Modern Welding Technology 4th Edition, Howard B. Cary.

Now let's go back towards the front of the book to page 74: "The voltage of a Helium shielded arc is higher than that of an Argon shielded arc for the same length carrying the same current. This is due to the(Once again!) Higher Ionization potential for Helium which is 24.5 v. the ionization potential for Argon is only 15.7 V. The Ionization potential is the voltage necessary to remove an electron from a gas atom, making it an ion or a charged atom. The Helium arc column is larger and has deeper penetration. This is why the arc shielded with Helium has more power (Heat) and can do more work. The Helium shielded arc column is larger, produces more penetration, can use a higher travel speed, and can weld heavier base metals provided that all of the parameters are strictly maintained and controlled in such a manner where only mechanized/automated applications can provide such consistent results when compared to manual applications which show erratic arc characteristics, and inconsistencies due to the constant changes in parameters because of manual changes that are unpredictable in the human positioning of the torch."

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 12-22-2010 03:56 Edited 12-22-2010 05:51
A bit old, but I have to ask.
Is an argon-helium mix a good idea? for a multi purpose mix?
What it sounds good to me is a 75-25 mix of argon-helium, will work for everything.
The helium gives heat and penetration.
The argon gives a shield coverage and coating.
For working TIG and MIG.
For Aluminum, Stainless Steel,  Copper, Mild Steel, etc.
With no possible oxidation.
Am I missing something here?
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-22-2010 08:49
I believe you are... Please re-read the last paragraph of my last post:

"Now let's go back towards the front of the book to page 74: "The voltage of a Helium shielded arc is higher than that of an Argon shielded arc for the same length carrying the same current. This is due to the(Once again!) Higher Ionization potential for Helium which is 24.5 v. the ionization potential for Argon is only 15.7 V. The Ionization potential is the voltage necessary to remove an electron from a gas atom, making it an ion or a charged atom. The Helium arc column is larger and has deeper penetration. This is why the arc shielded with Helium has more power (Heat) and can do more work. The Helium shielded arc column is larger, produces more penetration, can use a higher travel speed, and can weld heavier base metals provided that all of the parameters are strictly maintained and controlled in such a manner where only mechanized/automated applications can provide such consistent results when compared to manual applications which show erratic arc characteristics, and inconsistencies due to the constant changes in parameters because of manual changes that are unpredictable in the human positioning of the torch."

This paragraph summarizes the possibilities of using either helium,or an argon helium gas mix, yet also describes generally some the limitations in certain applications whereby the use of helium could also increase the potential for some detrimental results when applied improperly... Howard pretty much spells this out in the last paragraph I posted of his book. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Argon...Helium...which is "hotter", yes this is a trick ?

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