Question regarding my certification level

By Blaster (***)

Date 12-13-2009 05:00

Hi Mikey.

I think you may not be clear on what a certifcation is. Completion of a course of study is not in itself a certification.

In our trade certifications are based on code or standard specific performance tests and acceptance criteria.

By xmikeyx Date 12-13-2009 05:10

I kinda figured that. I thought going into this job I am at I was going to be working under welders who were certified. And I would be able to go back to school while working and get certified myself.

I am kind of in between a rock and hard place as I can't afford to lose this job, but my work ethic and business ethic instilled in me by my grand parents and parents keeps me awake at night knowing product is leaving the shop knowing it could possibly be welded wrong.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 12-13-2009 18:29

I hate to tell you this but you are not "certified" to anything. You have qualification papers that were given/earned by the school you attended. This was on a welding procedure using a process on materials specified by the schools welding procedure.
If the company you are working for does not have welding procedures and you have not been tested to them, then you are not certified or qualified by any code.
I am assuming the school you attended is not a qualified AWS testing facility. But even if it is and the procedures you qualified to are not the procedures, process or materials you are using, then you welding qualification papers are not good.
Some companies say they only have "certified" welders and do not have a QC manual, department or QC supervisor. And it comes down to what the company manufactures. I know a local company that manufactures farm and tractor tools and does irrigation work. In their phone book ads in the newspaper they list "Certified" welders. They do not have a welding procedure on the place let alone have a welder that has taken a test. There are two welders I have tested in the past who did not pass they send out as "Certified". And all they weld on is irrigation pipe, farm tractors, equipment and build steel buildings. So if they want to say they have "Certified" welders, they can go ahead.
The problem comes up when a customer needs a qualified welder. Instead of the $45 per hour irrigation pipe welder they need a $85 per hour welder with qualification papers and welding procedures, QC and all that behind them. The customer thinks they are getting ripped of by the $85 charge because both welders are "Certified". The fact is neither of them are certified. One is qualified and one is not.
And when it comes to certification papers, if the company you are working for does not have the ability or desire to do things right, all they need to do is just pencil whip paperwork and make you all "Certified". Make some nice certificates that say Joe Blow Certified by XYZ manufacturing to SMAW, GMAW, wait, Stick Wire and Heliarc Process on all required materials.
All the owner has to do is be sure the welder is breathing and they all you can be "Certified"
If you are going to do it the wrong way, may as well boilerhouse the whole thing.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-13-2009 19:52 Edited 12-13-2009 20:18

Big Kahunna put it best. I used to think I could get "certified" but that's not the case. If your working single hand and the company holds specific procedures they should test you to their procedures which would make you qualified to weld under the company procedures. If you were to leave the company then your qualification will not go with you. Your qualification will expire more or less because the next company may have similar procedures or even identical ones but they will still test you under their procedures. If the company has no procedures, people cannot qualify(certify) because there is nothing to qualify(certify) to. It's not the welders job to have procedures, our's is merely to pass the test.

The schools tests are just basically tests that the teacher can see that you've done it or pass you. The school I've gone to sends out plates to have an x-ray and then the guys get a paper from the lab that shows it passed. This way when you actually get out on a job or in an interview you can tell them I passed 6G in school and here is the x-ray report. At least you have some proof that you have done it before. I've got an x-ray report on a 6010 downhill 5G from school. Get out doing work for the gas companies it doe's not mean anything.

Besides, anybody that knows anything would look at your reports from school and ask the owner's of the company, "what the heck are these??". They have to have procedures written up for what they do, welding aluminum tube, structural steel, stainless and so on. I've done some single hand gas pipe welding for a company locally and they have no clue. No procedures, no nothing, I'm thinking I could braze up the pipe and they would think that is how it was supposed to be done. If an inspector came on the job I'm not sure what would happen but they'd get pointed towards management. I've got my procedures and qualifications but they would not mean jack while working for this company.

Keep reading on here, the guys on here have tought me a lot over the last year and a half and all I did was read. I've also talked with the guys at the lab several times, one guy has been around the API end for over 30 years so I get him to talking and he's an open book. I just stand there and soak up the knowledge. Good luck!

Shawn

By chris2698 (****)

Date 12-13-2009 19:54 Edited 12-13-2009 19:58

Have to agree with dbigkahunna. I see alot on here guys saying I am certified in this and this but are you really certified or is it just some BS thing the school says you are certified to pass there little welding test to move on to the next thing. This is one of the reason I really didn't finish welding school to get a diploma because i feel it was BS and that I needed the welding certifications more then anything for jobs out there. The job I am at now welding on aluminum they had us do the weld test and then they sent our welds off to some test lab to x-ray and make sure our welds are 100%. I know if i were to leave tomorrow I wouldn't get my certs to go to another company because if these guys certified every welder that came in and gave them the certs these guys would be quiting alot and would probally cost the company to much money in certifications.

cumminsguy that is pretty cool you're teacher sends the plates off now is this a school that is run by the state or is it a private school?
I know where i went they couldn't afford anything like this. ell they could barely afford rods sometimes

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-13-2009 20:23

Hey Chris, yeah it's a state school and they send out plates/pipe and tube to get x-rayed. The student pays the teacher xx amount of dollars to pay for the test and the lab gives students a discount. What the student pays the teacher is exactly what the lab fee is. They still do the bend test at school but from my multiple visits to the lab they have several different radius dies to bend the test plates. Not all plates are bent to the same radius, at least that's what I learned while I looked on at the different dies when they were bending my plates. They do alright for most materials, metal is the hard thing to come by. They try not to buy metal and have a few connections to get scrap plate, pipe and so on.

By chris2698 (****)

Date 12-13-2009 20:38

Cool so how much does the student pay then for the test? give me an example? When I go back and visit my old school I'll mention to the old instructor about having student send there test pieces to a lab but to be honest most the students in the class didn't have much money for a test like that and not only that maybe one out of 20 students would be interetsed in doing this it's sad but it is what it is, but really is a good idea though it allows the student to leave the program with a diploma and actual real certs. he can use on a job.

When I was in school that is what we used was a bend tester and thats kinda how we got to move onto the next stage we did the v butt flat and if it bent we moved onto horizontal and so forth you know. The bend test was a really cool piece of equiptment because if that weld wasn't very good it would show for sure. I broke many coupons in that thing and passed many as well.

By xmikeyx Date 12-13-2009 21:05

I appreciate you guys explaining to me the ropes. As I said Im new and trying to understand the field I am in.

I guess what I need to do is have the company I work for send out test welds off the machine and by the welders and have them tested. I believe they need to pass AWS B2.1.

I like the company i work for and I would like to stay with them, but I am going to try and see if I can get them to do these tests. I know they do dye penetration tests, but even they must be done right.

Lets see what happens tomorrow.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-13-2009 21:38

Chris, we pay half price I think. For plate tests I believe it's $35 and for a pipe x-ray it's $45, they have to use more film for a piece of pipe.

By chris2698 (****)

Date 12-14-2009 01:22

Thanks Shawn that isn't to bad of a price being half price and probally good for the testing people because it will always be good steady work coming in for them all the time while whatever work they may do with other companys may be kinda slow

By waccobird (****)

Date 12-14-2009 10:50

Cumminsguy71
Different Materials require different radius for bend samples
The Higher Tensile get a larger radius bend.
Having the right apparatus for the material testing in is part of the qualification.
Marshall

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 12-15-2009 04:57

I wondered why they had the different radius for the bends. The lab did not explain it they just said they were for different things. Thanks for the explanation though, makes sense. At the school they just do plain ol' donated mild steel and seems like they only do it for the mig test. All the smaw plates are sent out the the lab for the kodak.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-13-2009 21:26

When I was working as a welder for the Ua LOCAL 250 I took all my pipe tests at local 250 lab.
The certs are in my name and accepted by any union contractor acroos the USA and Canada
provided continuity papers are filled out every 6 months by a contractor or going to any lab and
running a couple of beads on a pipe. I have not taken a certification test in 15 years. Although
I consider my hood retired, as I enjoy inspecting much more i keep all my certs updated just in
case. Also according to ASME sect 9 in an effort to reduce paper work a welder qualified under one companies procedure
can use those certifications at another company using the same WPS without retaking the actual welding test
if the company and engineer agree. Also the City of Los Angeles structural steel certifications are recognized world wide
and they are in the name of the welder not a company. Last but not least if the contractor is a city of Los angeles
approved fabricator none of the welders need to be certified for anything and all the welds are approved by
an inhouse inspector who took a 10 min test to qualify this fabrication license. It is also accepted worldwide
But the company does have to put together a QC Manual.

By 803056

Date 12-14-2009 03:51 Edited 12-14-2009 04:54

From reading all these posts it clear few people have a good understanding of qualification and certification.

The first point to understand is that when a welder welds a test coupon and passes the requisite tests, i.e., guided bend tests, radiographic examination, fillet break test, nick break test, etc., he or she is being qualified. Once the test results are in and a welder performance test report is completed, there is a signature placed at the bottom of the report attesting to the fact that the named welder has passed the required tests. When the signature is placed on the paperwork, i.e., the test report, the signer is "certifying" the welder has met the qualification requirements of a particular welding standard or code.

The second point to understand is there is no "universal" welder's performance test. Each welding standard or code has unique requirements the have to be met. Each welding code or standard has requirements that differ slightly or greatly from every other welding standard. For instance, API recognizes the nick-break test and th guided bend test. The nick-break test is unique to API and is not recognized by other welding standards. Likewise, the guided bend test is different from the standard quided bend test used by the Navy, AWS D1.1, or ASME, Section IX. The major difference is the API bend test uses a bend diameter considerably larger than AWS or ASME, thus the weld is not stressed to the same extent.

API is not alone, ASME guided bend tests use a bend diameter similar to those required by AWS, but the acceptance criteria is not as stringent. AWS and ASME qualification tests are not equivalent.

AWS D1.1 has provisions for prequalified welding procedures. A welder can test to a prequalified WPS, a WPS qualified by testing, i.e., it is supported by a PQR, or the welder can be tested (I hate to even write the acronym) Standard WPS. Welders qualifying to ASME Section IX (in general) have to be tested using a WPS qualified by testing, i.e., a WPS supported by a PQR, or an AWS SWPS that is listed in ASME Section IX Article 5. Again, differences between the welding codes must be recognized.

As for the transportability of welder qualifications, again there are differences between the welding codes. A welder qualified in accordance to AWS D1.1 by an independent laboratory or an employer can be accepted by a new employer provided they review it and agree that it is applicable to the work and they accept responsibility for the welder’s work (accept legal liability). Welders qualified to ASME Section IX in general have to be qualified and tested by each employer unless (remember what the letters A-S-M-E stand for) the welder and the employer are a members of an association and each employer, i.e., contractor, is present when the welder is tested and each employer evaluates the test coupon.

Welders qualifying to weld in accordance with NAVSEA TP278 are qualified in accordance with NAVSEA TP248. Qualification entails passing a visual acuity test, classroom training covering fabrication and workmanship requirements, pass a written tests, and finally the welder has to pass the hands-on demonstration of skill, i.e., weld the test coupons. Once again the acceptance criteria and bend diameters of the guided bend test or radiographic acceptance criteria may differ from other welding standards.

Welding inspectors, whether they are AWS certified welding inspectors or not, have to know what the differences are for each welding standard they are going to test the welder to. It is clear to me that some inspectors don’t read the fine print detailing the testing requirements. It shows up when a close review of the welder performance test report is undertaken. It amazing how many test reports contain errors. Those errors can leave the welder with his or her hindquarters exposed and they can invalidate the welder’s qualifications that cost dearly in terms of time and dollars spent.

Is the student welder’s qualifications (certification to the unfamiliar) valid? It depends on the welding standard that was used when he was qualified, whether the qualification is applicable to the work being performed, and whether the employer accepts responsibility for the welder's work.

QC manual or not, it is entirely up to the employer to recognize the AWS performance qualification. Most welders have never seen the QC manual even if they work to ASME requirements. Likewise with military work, most welders have never seen the QC manual and for the most part they have no need to read it. The QC manual is intended to be implemented by the QC/QA department and management. Lower tier documents such as travelers and WPS are intended to provide direction and work instructions to the welders and other workmen.

In no case I am aware of a code or standard that permits an unqualified welder to work under the auspices of another welder that is qualified. Either the welder is qualified (and certified by the employer) for the work being performed or the welder is not qualified. There is no in-between or almost qualified status.

Best regards - Al

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-14-2009 15:35

Before you make these statements that alot of us don't know what we doing
perhaps you should do a little research before making comments that there is no
code or standard that allows a welder to work under another welders Certifications. Thats
not what I posted I said they work under the guidance of an individual certified by the
city of los angeles to inspect all welds done by the shop . THE WELDERS DO NOT HAVE
TO BE CERTIFIED TO ANY TEST PROCEDURE OR SPECIFICATION!!!. Call up The AWS
and ask them. And Yes my UA certifications are valid and transferable from one contractor to another.
Not a single contractor has ever wittnessed a qualification test performed at a UA Test lab for the purpose
of prequalifying UNION WELDERS to a WPS accepted by all UNION CONTRACTORS. The contractor still has
the right to test any welder they want because of welders cheating on tests. Not one employer evaluated a test coupon
Without possession of a UA prequalified certification a welder is not even allowed to sign the out
0f work book as a welder. The City of Los Angeles Structural Steel Welders license is recognized world wide.
Try comming to Ca and working as a welder on structural steel without it . Of course this only applies to
welding done in the field or the shop of a non approved fabricator.

By Superflux (****)

Date 12-14-2009 18:30

joepirie,

"the City of Los Angeles structural steel certifications are recognized world wide"
Very true, I've seen these and recognize them for what they are. And if you show up on any project out in my region, those will get you RIGHT INTO THE TEST BOOTH!!!! (see next comment below)

"Try comming to Ca and working as a welder on structural steel without it ." Try coming out here with it! Those will make great coffee mug coasters on my desk.

BTW, Is the L.A. County, Deputy Inspector cert. still require for most CA. work? Back in the mid '80s, I was told I would need this to work in Ventura.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-14-2009 22:10

within the city of Los Angeles you are required top obtain a city of los Angeles deputy inspectors license. outside of
Los Angeles but in la county you nered a county license. pre req for these licenses is that you have to have an icc structural steel inspection license.
This does not apply to hospitals or schools who want an aws cwi license. Icc will give you their license if your already a AWS CWI provided you take
a high strength bolting test. These agencys should all accept the AWS CWI license, as it is by far the hardest to obtain. the city of lA and ICC
just want your money

By Superflux (****)

Date 12-15-2009 00:13

Joe,
Thanks for the clarification and update. Yeah, it's all about the $$$$$$$

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 12-14-2009 18:52

I dunno Joe

Honestly.. The LA city cert. may be accepted in various circumstances worldwide, but you could also assert that the LA city cert is not accepted worldwide...   There are plenty of states, municipalities and nations that don't recognize that particular cert.   I know my state (Wisconsin) has it's own state structural cert. and does not recognize LA. No knock on the LA cert itself.. It's a great one. Further on this point.... The AWS cannot/willnot speak about the LA city cert or whether an LA inspector's inspections are so great that welders working under his/her watch need not be certified/qualified. There is no formal affiliation between the AWS and the City of Los Angeles. Call them yourself and ask :)

I've honestly never heard of such a thing as welders working under the "guidance" of an inspector, and that inspector's qualifications being such that the production welders have no need of performance qualification.... That would certainly not comply for any D1.1 code work...   I'd like to hear more about this one cause it's completely new to me when the matter applies to structural steel.

I've read the second part of your post 5 times through and can't figure out what your trying to say..

What is "prequalifying UNION WELDERS to a WPS accepted by all UNION CONTRACTORS"???   Are you saying this is a thing that can be done or are you saying it's a thing that cannot be done...? All unions? Really?

The point I would like to make that applies to this thread is as follows:

Welder performance qualifications (and yes Al is correct when he states a welder performance qual doccument signed by authority *IS* in fact a certification) can be based on an manufacturers internal spec, AWS code, ISO or EN standard, DOD, ASME, or some other body... All are certs, all are qualls. The question is where do they apply and how can that be validated. The answer is ... It's complicated.

Code can be very black and white.. It can also be minimalist in various aspects, allowing engineers to accept a wide variety of performance qualifications or none at all.

When it comes to acceptance of welder performance quals. Ya just have to be carefull about speaking in absolutes unless those absolutes are stated in the code itself.. And even then an employer/fabricator is always at liberty to exceed any aspect of the code, including acceptance of welder performance quals.

By RonG

Date 12-14-2009 20:12

Me thinks some folks just get fast & loose with the term CERTIFIED and lose contact with reality. The only unshakable certification I know of is when they wrap you in a straight jacket and throw you in a padded cell.

If you want to work in our shop, you will first prove you can produce a sound weld on your own time in the lab of our choosing (our expense). If you are hired then we get down to qualifying you on different processes with in 90 days. Then there special proprietary procedural process’s that can get you higher up the pay scale.

You are not certified, but you are QUALIFIED to weld on the customer’s equipment and the employer controls and own all the paper work. You can/may go any where in the world (and we do) and weld on our jobs with the exception of on site at a Nuclear plant (that’s a real pain in the arse too). Even though I have done that 3 times I still have no marketable certification only a sheet of paper that says I am/was qualified to weld on that site.

I understand Certified by state law like a PE, but I do not think it will allow you by pass the test booth due to the fact that where the law leaves off the insurance companys pick up and they have vested intrest in welder qualifications.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-14-2009 21:39

what im saying is The United association of Steamfitters and Welders has Wps procedures qualified by a welder way back in the 1980s.
every welder in the union takes pipe welding tests to these specs
UA 21 2"xxhvy sch 160 6010 root 7018 out
UA 22 2" xxhvy sch 160 Er70S root 7018 out
UA 41 2" xxhvy sch160 ER70s all the way
UA 42 2" sch 40 stainless tig all the way out
UA 1 6" sch 40 6010 downhill asll the way out.
When a contractor calls the hall he asks for a welder with the certs he requires for there job application.
the welder shows his certification card and it is accepted by the contractor as a valid asme certification under sect 1x
these certs are accepted in any UA local in the united states and canada and any union contractor. the union contractor is never
going to see any test or test coupons. I never said that an employer fabricator has to accept an asme cert from another company I said it
could be done with approval ogf the owner and the engineer.
Before the union had prequalified procedures. A contractor called the hall and asked for a welder. the welder then went to the test lab and tested for the required specs of that job.
The welder got paid for 8 hrs even if it took only 2 hrs to test or if he busted the test on VT of the root pass. This was very costly for the contractors so they went to the above
mentioned pre qualified welds. Most contractors xray the first two welds and if theres any repairs the welder is terminated. do a google search on the city of Los amngeles type 1,2 fabricators license

By joe pirie (***)

Date 12-14-2009 22:03

http://www.ladbs.org/forms/inspection_forms/IN-App.24.pdf
here is the application form for acity of LA fabricators license.
call them and ask if welders need to be certified to work in the shop of an approved fabricator lmao

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-15-2009 03:27

What Joe is describing is very much the same type of program that the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers "Common Arc" Welding qualification program works like as well which was implemented in the late 1980's and became fully implemented in 1993...

However, there are some pitfalls to administering programs such as Common Arc, or UA's own version of similar type of multiple contractor wide, one size fits all type of welder qualification program but before we get into those let's review what the Common Arc Program is...

The Common Arc Corporation - is a welder performance/qualification maintenance program designed to do away with multiple welder qualification testing. This program reduces the cost of testing for the contractor and the owner/client. A welder takes a single test administered by multiple contractors - National Association of Construction Boilermaker Employers (NACBE) . Welders are tested on their own time, not at contractor expense. All tests are conducted in keeping with ASME Section IX Welding Code...

Now, this is what they want everybody to believe with respect to having the single test administered by multiple contractors for the purpose of the performance qualification to be accepted by ALL of the multiple contractors, and this is simply not possible to achieve since All of the multiple contractors representatives cannot be at the testing facility everytime and in every location throughout the USA for one thing!!! We're talking 220 contractors, so realistically speaking - this would be impossible because for each test, all 220 contractors would have to sign off! They do come up with a system that works and it's all explained in the manual...

Then there are a multitude of major contractors who require additional testing besides what is required through the common arc program also... So this notion of the Common Arc Welder to be required to only pass one test is certainly a misnomer simply because there isn't only one test that covers every type of qualification that a welder would need to be qualified to in order to weld every type of process, every type of metal grade, and every thickness or diameter one would find in working @ every location within a power house of every conceivable design throughout the USA and Canada also!!! If it were that simple, then everybody would give a qualification test that would cover everything which is what one would have to design and implement in order to cover every conceivable variable necessary for the welder to be completely qualified to work with every contractor on any and every job site without exception!!! don't worry because it's explained in the Common Arc Manual below...

So instead, The Boiler makers, the NACBE came up with a manual which pretty much takes care of most, if not all of the potential pitfalls that could be encountered if the program was intended to be a one size shoe fit's all type of program which would realistically be impossible to achieve with only one test... So here is the Common Arc Corporation's Welder Performance Qualification Maintenance Program Manual... here's the link to the entire manual for anyone to review:

http://www.commonarc.com/manual/manual.pdf

Here's the Homepage for The Common Arc Corporation:

http://www.commonarc.com/welcome.htm#top

For anyone who is interested in testing to this program, here are testing dates:

http://www.commonarc.com:5061/tests/

These are the member contractors in NACBE:

http://www.nacbe.com/membership.html

So in summary, this how the Boilermakers do it Joe... I would imagine that the UA has more than likely a very similar program as the Common Arc Program by the Boilermakers! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By mightymoe (**)

Date 12-15-2009 21:20

I work in a UA shop. I have no UA certs. All my certs are for the shop that I'm working at.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 12-15-2009 21:53

You're correct! Nobody owns the certification papers as members of the Boilermakers... The only ones that own the certs are the NACBE - PERIOD!!! I just asked a friend of mine who's very involved with the UA local 449 Steamfitters here in Pittsburgh and the local's certification program which goes by the same UA model, and he just finished telling me that none of the welders who are "Qualified" to UA Welding tests DO NOT own their certs... They are owned by the contractors who all contribute to fund the commonality agreement between them and the program as whole which is very similar to what the Boilermaker's "Common Arc" program consists of.

The Los Angeles City Cert is really a license just like the New York City Welding License, or any of the State licenses which may or may not have articulation agreements between them, and I do know that the LA City license is NOT recognized in New York City or NY state! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry