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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / ASTM G48 Method A-Corrosive Testing #4
- - By rodofgod (**) Date 12-23-2009 23:31 Edited 12-23-2009 23:34
Hi All!

I am rather hesitant in posting this, However, I will keep to my word for those who are intrested.

In a previous post that has since been locked, I stated that I had also sent an email to Metrode, concerning the corrosive testing of duplex and super duplex filler wires, or as welded metal according to G48!

Basicly, I copied  G.S.Crisi's original letter to metrode with minor modifications to grammar etc!

Three days later, I received this reply (not in full as that would be against the laws of the land), but the main body of the response:

"The test temperatures given in the ASTM G48 standard are only recommendations, and the required test temperature will be given in the relevant application code or standard.  The testing temperature will be selected based on the material that is under test.  For standard 22%Cr weld metals the testing temperature is normally +22°C or +25°C and for superduplex weld metals stainless steels it is normally +35°C or +40°C.  Unwelded base material (or solution annealed welds) will pass the test at higher temperatures.

The G48 test is designed to assess materials for pitting corrosion resistance in chloride media (stress is not relevant).  The test solution is actually quite aggressive, certainly more so than the materials would be subjected to in normal service.  The ASTM standard states that the solution is designed to provide breakdown of 304 at room temperature; you will see from the results given in ASTM G48 (Table 1) that actually the solution causes breakdown of 316L at room temperature (+20°C).

Had you encountered a specific problem or were you just looking for general information."

I might add that the original question was put thru metrodes own web site question application, not direct to any person! Maybe why the question received such a quick response!

Pretty quick Reply I thought!

Regards
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-24-2009 04:52
So the KEY WORDS are: "Recommendations" Well then, it is NOT written in Stone as some folks may tend to believe! ;)

Now I would hope that we all can finally put this thread in it's proper location... Locked and done with already!!!

Henry
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 12-24-2009 10:40 Edited 12-24-2009 10:50
I think this pretty well backs up everything I have said on this subject.

As to this being only "recommendations and not cast in stone". Have a look at the test results that a NZ did for me with a 22%Cr consumable on superduplex and make your own judgement on whether you should disregard manufacturers' recommendations!

Thanks Rodofgod for the response.

Merry Christmas! (but no holidays here so work as usual).
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 12-24-2009 16:16
Nanjing,

impressive.

Just out of curiosity.

Am I right by saying: Shielding gas was pure CO2 at a flow rate of 20-25 l/min?

Is this common when using this particular flux cored wire electrode?

Stephan
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 12-24-2009 22:25
Stephan, WPS states that this is what was used. I cannot say whether this is common but gas composition and flow rate is in line welding downhand.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 12-25-2009 10:33
I see.

Thanks Nanjing!

Stephan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-25-2009 07:12
Bill,

First off, in the original thread the reason why this discussion led to an agrument and then eventually into a total mess was simply because the OP wrote that the base/parent metal was a 4" dia. schedule 120 S 31803 22% Cr, 2205 Duplex grade of SS, and NOT a 25% Super Duplex which is IMHO, a big difference between these 2 Base/Parent  metals, don't you agree??? And by just looking @ the test temp for the corrosion test alone, would it be prudent to ASSUME that the Base/Parent metal automatically be a super duplex grade even though the OP clearly wrote that the pipe was a 22% Cr, S31803 2205 Duplex grade of SS??? I didn't think so  which is the reason why we got inot the never-ending dispute over this topic!!! All anyone has to do -is to simply follow the original thread chronologically, and anyone can see that the OP (Original Poster wrote that the pipe was 22% (s-31803) 2205 Duplex grade of SS and NOT "Super Duplex"... The only reference from the OP regarding a 255 Cr Super Duplex metal at all was when he was referring to the grade of filler wire used for the root pass which was deposited via GTAW... All of the subsequent passes were deposited with a 2209 (22% Cr) FCAW filler ,and I truly believe that is where all the confusion started - PERIOD!!!

I never disagreed with your conclusion, and in the original thread I acknowledged it also... Nor did I elude your question regarding the test temperature being too high for that specific grade of duplex either, and I answered your question with an emphatic no more than once!!! Yet you still have this notion that I' disagree with ytour conclusion and I do not understand why???

This WPS and supplementary data doesn't tell anyone what was the G48 test temps, and I too wasn't aware that you could use CO2 for shielding gas when FCA welding of Super Duplex grade SS??? I haven't checked, but does Metrode recommend that also???

Finally, when I said: "As to this being only "recommendations and not cast in stone." It doe not mean to disregard the Manufacturers recommendations at all! It means that the recommendations are just that - Nothing less as well as Nothing more ,so I would appreciate it that you would NOT add words that clearly I did not write at all, because when you do so, you only start another round of confusion and mis-communication... If you need clarification as to what I am writing, all you have to do is ask, and I would be more than happy to follow up.

In summary, I would like to propose that this topic be concluded right here and right now, so as to bring in the New Year with the proverbial slate wiped off clean, and hopefully staying that way through a renewed mutual effort in promoting once again,  MUTUAL RESPECT IN THIS FORUM. ;)

Sincerely,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 12-25-2009 10:50
Henry,

so well said - truly noble!

Your suggestion to conclude the topic hereby is - from my humble standpoint - more than agreeable.

Perhaps it would be worth it however, to ask around on the experience of the forum fellow members with the shielding gases used to weld duplex -or similar materials. Eventually in the 'Metallurgy' section?

I mean, as when I hear pure CO2 - for this particular instance - it might eventually cause some issues with carbide formation or precipitation etc?

But like I mentioned, I don't know how especially these material types are susceptible to such degradations.

I would have hoped that js55 would have found a second of his precious time to chime in, as I personally don't know anybody possessing a greater expertise with these tricky little details than even Jeff.

Merry Christmas Henry,
Stephan
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 12-25-2009 14:24
Stephan, I totally disagree with your viewpoint, noble? I think Henry owes me an apology.

For your information, on the use of CO2 when welding duplex, I attach some further information from Metrode.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 12-25-2009 15:54
Nanjing,

I have to separate my reply to you into two different parts.

1. The valuable technical information you did provide:

Thank you for the details with respect to the use of pure CO2 for the flux cored wires discussed. Firstly that was quite new to me and thus, I've been blessed again today by being allowed, to have learned something new. Secondly it confirms to me what I have found out on several occasions meanwhile. Namely, that flux cored wires can show sometimes quite different behaviour in both welding- and metallurgical aspects compared to solid wires. It is, like it is. The flux composition appears as being the residual secret.

2. Your disagreement with my viewpoint:

That's unfortunate.

Sincerely,
Stephan
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 12-25-2009 14:16
Henry, do not try and worm your way out of this one.

I made it quite clear from the beginning that 40C was the wrong test temperature for 22%Cr filler wire in welder 5354's case and that all your previous hypothesis on the root cause was incorrect to say the least. I still think you do not see it. What difference does it make if the base material is 22%Cr or 25%Cr? it is irrelevant. 22%Cr base material will stand up to 40C no problem.
Henry, it is you who are causing the confusion here. Rodofgod posted Metrode's recommendations which backed up everything I have said and what is your response?  "It is only recommendations!"

Tell me Henry if welder 5354 had phoned you up before he had run his procedure and said "I have to weld 22%Cr dupex procdure but the corrosion tests are at 40C with a maximum weight loss of 4mg/m2 and my boss wants to use 22%Cr filler as it is a fraction of the price of 25Cr. Welding consumable manufacturer does not recommend it" Will it be ok?

How would you have replied? "Don't worry, manufacturers recommendations are not cast in stone".

I feel concern that young engineers will take on board advice from people who are considered well versed in welding purely because they write a lot of posts.

For your information the test temperature of the G48's were 40C. Did you think it was above this?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-26-2009 13:55 Edited 12-26-2009 14:08
"Pure CO2" Too funny Stephan!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

Bill,
It's really unfortunate that your attitude, tone of message, total lack professionalism continues to describe you as accurate as ever!!! I offer an olive branch, and instead of starting anew in the spirit of MUTUAL RESPECT, You continue with your unfortunate display of arrogance, and just plain outright nastiness that is unacceptable regardless of your title, position, or any other so-called entitlement which may have been granted to you in other forums, but is totally unacceptable as well as irrelevant in this one!

You just don't seem to get it, yet everyone else in here does, so I will not attempt any further reconciliation with a person that shows no interest in acting as an adult... You missed an important opportunity here Bill and that is regrettable, because like I said before, the folks in here will eventually find out what type of individual you really are, and this display coming from you SPEAKS VOLUMES!

Henry
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 12-27-2009 01:36
Henry, I would have accepted your "olive branch" if you had been man enough to admit your failings on this subject and I would have respected you for that. You have been wrong all along on this and everyone with any technical expertise will know it. End of story.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 12-27-2009 07:14
I respectfully disagree with it being the end of the story, since your true nature is only beginning to be revealed in here... So I'm looking at a very revealing observation of someone who is so out of touch with reality that the person actually believes there in some sort of reality which has been self-fabricated, and unfortunately in a very sad and bizarre fantasy world which this person wants to believe they live in. :( You will see the planet freeze over before I apologize to you for something that is already a fact, and has been proven time and again in the first thread as well as in threads which continue to show you exhibiting such weird behavior... So give it a rest Bill, and enjoy the Holidays because, you need to get some joy in your life and escape from your self-imposed state of misery! ;) :) ;)

There's nothing at this point that can be said to convince you otherwise, so all I can do is hope that one day you will see the error in your ways Bill. Now we can all say that this is the END OF THE STORY, unless Bill decides to continue it with his denial which will only prove without any ambiguity that he's obsessed with this thread and obsessed with having the last word, and in dire need of professional help because as far as I'm concerned... THIS IS THE END OF THE STORY NO MATTER WHAT IS WRITTEN AFTERWARDS!!!

Henry
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 12-27-2009 09:20
Henry, remember you wrote this garbled nonsense right at the beginning of the first thread before I made any comment.

  "By ssbn727  Date 10-28-2009 03:29 Edited 10-28-2009 03:35 Rating 2.33   Hi Welder 5354!

Were the pitting marks on the face surface, or the root surface? This is really important because, if it was on the root surface then, the culprit would more than likely be the ppm level of Oxygen within the purging gas as being too high, if that is where the pitting marks were found.

Respectfully,
Henry .SSBN727
Run Silent...  Run Deep!!! "

Absolute nonsense! You never spotted 40C and 22%Cr filler! You have did nothing but back-peddle on this issue ever since and try and deflect issues towards my aggressive nature.

I also note your good friend the "highly esteemed Doctor Crisi" has disappeared from this issue after his glaring faux pas. Ferric chloride is a mild solution in the G48 test? I am not a chemical engineer but common sense would indicate that if it is used in an accelerated corrosion test it must be aggressive.

Everyone must be made aware for their sake when taking advice from you guys that what you say may well be off the mark technically.

On the plus side I have really appreciated some of the links you have provided and hope you continue to provide these.

Have a happy festive holiday, at this time of year I had hoped that you would have awoken like Charles Dickens's Ebenezer Scrooge and saw the errors of your ways. I bear no malice to any man so I wish you all the best at this time of year.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-02-2010 03:25
And it just goes on, and on, and on, and on... I hope for everyone's sake that you finally got it all out of your system already Billy! ;) ;) ;) I mean just think of all the wasted energy you have generated with continuing this childish behavior Billy???

Please put it to better use than to imitate someone who clips talking points as if they were in some sort of psuedo-political campaign, because there are professionals who do that for a living... In any event, have a happy new year billy and thanks for sharing!!! :) :) :)

Henry 
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 01-04-2010 03:24
This thread has proved you are an out and out charlatan when it comes to welding stainless. Everyone knows it u idiot.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-04-2010 07:25
Now, Now Billy!!! I thought we at least agreed to stop hurling insults at each other starting 2010 especially in the open part of the forum... Now, if you care to pretend to any sort of decency at all, you would adhere to such a promise of civility in here...

You could start a thread in the OTB&G and express yourself more freely than the way you unfortunately chose to exhibit your immature behavior in this part of the forum but then again, you would need to ask Ross for prior approval to become a member there beforehand. ;)

Too bad now that everyone knows for sure that YOU are the one who continues this silly, childish behavior instead of just starting anew and fresh with expressions of mutual respect at the very least for the first new posts of this very new year...

You decided to continue your utter lack of respect towards anyone, and I mean everyone in here by the way you chose to continue to express yourself in here billy!!! It is truly unfortunate indeed!!! :( :( :(

Ladies and Gentlemen! I REST MY CASE!!! ;)

Henry
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 01-04-2010 10:17
Rest your case? Your a headcase Henry.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-04-2010 12:19
Oh yeah?! Well my dad can beat up your dad, so there!

Grow up or go away.

jrw159
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-06-2010 23:15
Why thank you Billy!!! :) :) :) As a welder, I take that as a resounding compliment!!! ;) :) :)

Henry
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 01-06-2010 19:49
Fine, rodofgod! You've rendered a good service to us frequentors of this Forum. At long last we come to know (or at least I come to know) what Metrode have to say about their specification attached to one of nanjing's posting on another thread on this same subject.
Most people think that university professors must know all what's written on the Book of Universe since its creation. I say like Socrates (one of the greatest philosophers Human Kind has ever had), said: I only know that I know nothing.

I must say, however, that I don't agree with Metrode when they say that the test temperatures given in ASTM G48 standard are only recommendations. In my opinion, if a certain magnitude is stated on a standard (whether ASTM, ASME, SAE, AWS, ISO etc. etc.) it is to be followed.  
Now, nothing precludes a certain user of the standard (Metrode in this case) from running a test at a slightly different condition than that stated, provided he (the user) clears up on its written material (specification, catalog, pamphlet, instruction manual etc. etc.) that the test has been run according to standard such and such, EXCEPT THAT the temperature (or pressure, or concentration etc. etc.) was changed from ABC to XYZ for the following reason: bla bla bla....

rodofgod, no surprise you got a prompt and explanatory answer from Metrode. You're a Her Gratious British Majesty's subject, whereas I'm a citizen form a third world, underdeveloped country, and that makes a big difference ............
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil    
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-06-2010 22:55
Giovanni

You guys are first world when it comes to cagefighters!
Parent - - By rodofgod (**) Date 01-07-2010 00:25
Hi All!

Happy New Year too All!

Giovanni, thank you for your response! You obviously have not visited the U.K. recently, I am far from a 'Gratious British Majesty's subject' It is fast approaching third world status!
By the way, I do not think that Brazil ranks in the top of the worlds 'third world countries', in fact I thought it was the richest nation in South America?

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm

You need to stop putting yourself and your country down so much!

I believe the OP of this on-going, never ending thread actually stated that the corrosion tests were performed to Norsok Standard, quote OP: "The specimen was tested to Norsok Standard M-601 (Rev 4, July 2004) and the specimen was tested according to ASTM G48-03"

If this was the case, it is my understanding that Norsok use ASTM G48 for guidelines only, because of the unreliability and lack of consistency of the ASTM G48 that they have found when using this standard for the corrosion testing of weldments instead of what it was originally designed for. Here is another link showing the suggestions and findings of Norsok:

http://www.nordicinnovation.net/nordtestfiler/rep548.pdf

Interesting reading, I'm sure you'll agree, although not the latest revision!

This corrosion testing of duplex/super duplex materials seems to be a very grey area, as regards standards and acceptability, with different bodies deciding what is and what isn't acceptable.

Regards



Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 01-07-2010 06:00
I guess Prof Crisi is hinting that Brazil should be treated as underdog this coming World Cup :) No matter what, the stake wont go down Prof Crisi...You have to give at least min of +1 goal...:) :) :)
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 01-07-2010 20:13
Joey,
I've looked on the dictionary and didn't find the word "underdog". What exactly is it? 
Giovanni S. Crisi

PS. Don't worry, we're preparing the best soccer team human kind has ever seen. We'll be the World Champions for the 6th time.
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 01-08-2010 06:58
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/underdog

Brazil is also good in Beach Volleyball.

Champion horse jockey here is from Brazil. 

So, you must be proud that you're Brazillian.
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 01-07-2010 20:25
That's exactly what I wanted to mean, rodofgod. For some reason (or reasons) they consider important, Nordic has introduced some changes into the original ASTM specification and they state clearly that their materials are tested according to that revised spec. 
Nothing against it.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 01-07-2010 20:01 Edited 01-07-2010 20:07
Lawrence,
I've looked on the dictionary and didn't find the word "cagefighter". What exactly is it? Perhaps two black ribbon, kung fu fighters that perform into a cage?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 01-07-2010 20:13
Professor Crisi,
   A cage fighter is a MMA (mixed martial arts) fighter. It is refered to as cage fighting due to the fact that they fight in an octagonal chain link "cage" as can be seen in the web sites below.

http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/index_new_temp.php

http://www.ufc.com/

Brazilian jujitsu plays a big role in this sport and the Brazilians are truly some of the most dangerous fighters on the planet.

http://www.gracie.com/

The Gracie's played a big role in getting the MMA sport where it is today, specifically the UFC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC

jrw159
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-07-2010 21:25
Giovanni,

Cagefighting is a form of mixed martial arts...   Kung-Fu  Krate,  American wrestling, boxing.  Anything but teeth!

Your Brazillians are world renound for Ju-Jitsu

Several world champions currently are Brazillians..   Lyoto Machida and Anderson Sylva being the first who come to mind...  

Go to this Youtube link and see some Anderson Sylva knockouts!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkZkgcwn42I
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-07-2010 12:34
Giovanni,

I've been to your country, have performed work there, and for it here. It is people like you that are bringing Brazil to prominence in the world.
There may have been a time when Brazil was a third world country, but with all that's transpired in the last decade there, they are becoming a clear 1st world country, while the old guard first world countries are regressing to 2nd and 3rd.

The futures history books will reflect a much different book than the present's history.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 01-07-2010 20:58
I have a friend that is an engineer from Brazil. She is neither third world nor underdeveloped. Intellectually I mean.  :)
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / ASTM G48 Method A-Corrosive Testing #4

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