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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Who cleans joints for UT Inspection??
- - By eekpod (****) Date 01-20-2010 16:48
I am having a disagreement with a third party inspector who can't UT some full penetration joints because the mill scale and or rust is too thick on the material.  He says it is our responsability as the fabricator to clean back 4"-6" inches so he can UT scan and get the skip distance and all.
I so no, sorry as the fabricator it is our responsability to clean for the weld prep in the joints and up to 1/2" away from the completed weld, as well as remove slag in the interpasses and final welds but it is not our job to clean the entire area.  If he needs it clean for UT, then its his responsability to clean it for himself.

I'd like others input please.
We are talking hundreds of connections here, its early enough in the project to get this figured out now.
D1.1 Building Code Steel
Chris
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 01-20-2010 16:57 Edited 01-20-2010 16:59
eekpod
AWS D1.1 Clause 5.30.2 Cleaning of completed welds.
Not the inspectors job Welder or someone needs to do it.
Good Luck
Marshall
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-20-2010 17:04
This is kind of a judgement call on the inspector's part...he needs to feel reasonably certain that he is getting his sound into the part, so that might mean cleaning it if the surface is really rough where his couplant won't take care of the surface irregularities.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 01-20-2010 17:32
Just like with slag removal, it doesn't say who but someone has to do it.

Think of it this way:
1) the production people have all the PPE and equipment needed to clean the welds.  Inspectors usually do not.

2) UT techs often are paid more than the helper is.

3) If the weld isn't cleaned enough, it isn't the UT tech who fails.
Parent - By mroach (**) Date 01-20-2010 18:08
It is the responsibility of the NDT inspector to see that the surface prep will not interfere with the test. Most of them are instructed not to use the fabricators power tools, cranes, fork lifts etc, for liability insurance reasons. This might be a case where a little diplomacy could have been applied.
Parent - - By waccobird (****) Date 01-20-2010 18:09
CHGuilford
Good points
But as to " Just like with slag removal, it doesn't say who but someone has to do it."
AWS D1.1 Clause 5 Fabrication & AWS D1.5 Clause 3 Workmanship which both have mention of weld cleaning is for the contractor/Fabricator, not the inspector especially not a third party inspector. I don't want them with an attitude because of having to clean a weld or even having to wait for  it to be cleaned.
If you read AWS D1.5 Commentary to Clause 3.11.2 Cleaning of Completed Welds Reads in part:
Weld slag, loose or large spatter, and other residue deposits interfere with final weld inspection and may cause coating systems to fail prematurely. All such weld-related residue should be removed at the completion of the welding by the welder. In reasonable amounts, small tight spatter may remain unless it interferes with weld testing or painting.
Marshall
Parent - By Bob Garner (***) Date 01-20-2010 19:45
Where the responsibility is designated in the welding specs, that should take care of it.  But additionally, if you are working on a construction contract or similar, that contract may have additional or overiding inspection requirements.  The construction contracts I have seen make the contractor performing the work responsible for all preparations required for inspection of that work.  If the inspector needs a ladder, I get him a ladder.  But, if the inspector just touches a grinder, a welder could accuse him of not preparing the piece correctly for inspection so if anything tests wrong with the weld, it is the inspectors fault.

ps: If I was bossman, I would be more comfortable with my welders preparing for testing than the inspector.  No insults to inspectors, I just think my welders are responsible for passing the testing and test prep is part of this.  I trust the welders pay covers this work. If not, I'm going to balk at this contract.

Bob G.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-20-2010 19:51 Edited 01-20-2010 19:57
Man Chris,

You sure know how to stir the pot. 

Bob made a very good case as to the Contract Documents and personal opinions about the contractors workers being responsible to do the right job so it doesn't get messed up by the Inspector, and as Bob, no insult intended to inspectors.  I am one.  I am also a shop owner and fabricator/welder.  I would rather clear my own material than trust most inspectors to do it.  I don't know what their background is or how careful they will be.  Better my time doing extra cleaning than repairing members that got damaged.

Marshall, while D1.5 is totally outside what would be required of in D1.1 I don't mind referring to it in part.  BUT, in the second sentence of your quote it says "All such WELD-RELATED RESIDUE" , emphasis mine.  Tight mill scale or heavy rust is not weld related.  Especially when located back from the weld area.

According to D1.1 Clause 5, 5.30.2 as long as the slag is removed and the adjacent areas cleaned by brushing, the fabricator has done his part to satisfy the code. 

Having said that,  I still don't think I would want the Inspector, especially a TPI, doing it.  As already stated, liability issues, attitude, spirit of co-operation.  But, I would put a helper on it not the welder.  The guy I work with and I carry wire brushes and scrapers, but if they haven't at least made an honest effort to clean up ahead of us we send it back to them.  If they miss one weld among many, I clean it of slag and loose spatter. 

We also have been very fortunate to work in some very cooperative shops.  If we need anything they jump right in and take care of it.  That includes grinding mill scale, cleaning rust, etc. 

Good Luck,  I don't think this is going to be a simple solution situation for you.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 01-20-2010 23:48 Edited 01-20-2010 23:52
The contract documents make no mention of who is responsable.  I am treating the UT inspector/ asst the same, its all one person.

Think of it this way, how many times as third party inspectors do you inspect parts days or weeks after they are welded?  If its rusty cause it sat outside in the rain for a week, its not my fault it rusted, you should have been here sooner.  The UT tech would clean it himself then right? sure he would. Same w/ Dye pen, if its too rough and you get false indications, not our fault.

I think part of the problem is everyone tries to keep the inspectors happy, and in doing so we give in to extra demands/ requests thinking it will pay for itself later by cooperating with them.  Sometimes it will sometimes it won't. 
A truelly fair and professional inspector woulnd't need to have stuff done for him,  he would inspect it to the code and its good or bad, that's it.

Now, remember I am an inspector by trade, and I know what its like to have people tell me to get lost I'm not doing that, Ive been there, don't like it but it happens.  I don't have the jurisdiction to tell our shop personnel to clean the welds, they don't report to me, the owner said to his foreman don't do it.  I'm stuck in the middle.

If it were me, since we already did some to be nice and to keep things moving, I'd say work with me and you do some and we'll do some, but to expect us to automatically go and grind every connection (approx 40 x 7) because you can't do your job I say is expecting too much of the fabricator.  You know how clean you want it, not some of these guys.

As far any any damage he may do while cleaning the material, it will be his responsability, becasue he has to buy off the entire weldment at the end of the day.
My opinion
If your not living on the edge, your takin up too much room
Parent - - By joe pirie (***) Date 01-21-2010 00:27
I usually have a stiff paint scraper in my pocket to remove random dingle berries and such. No way im going to clean
mill slag or other surface contaminents. Im sure if a procedure had to be qualified for these welds that the test plate
was cleaned and brushed  and in the most wps it says the weld shall be cleaned and prepped for testing.
I would make every effort to make a third party inspector as happy as possible. and i've been on both sides . I was a 3rd party inspector and
I had a shop superintendent refuse to give me copies of the welders certs, shop welding procedures, mill certs etc.
I Told him provide the requested documents or i would fail every weld i inspected. He called my boss and said i was being unreasonable
my boss laughed  and told him he'd report them to aisc. LoLOL
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-21-2010 04:53 Edited 01-21-2010 05:09
I would cite clauses 6.6.1 Contractor's Responsibility and 6.6.2 Inspector's Request "........ to correct deficiencies in material ........" Then there's clause 6.26.3 Cleanliness addresses the surface conditions of the test material.

Anyone with an ounce of sanity would do whatever was necessary to keep power tools out of the hands of a "nonemployee" such as a TPI for the simple fact that it is in the fabricator's best interest to minimize potential exposures to liability. I can see a TPI wielding a grinder and slashing his knee, wrist, or losing an eye. Were that to happen, just drop the sign in front of the shop and place the inspector's name on it because he and his lawyers are going to own it when the dust settles. The TPI isn't the fabricator's employee so he isn't covered by the fabricator's worker's comp, so the fabricator is a litigant (potential target) if the TPI gets hurt on the premises. Remember, worker's comp shields the employer from litigation should the employee gets injured on the job. Worker's comp does not protect the employer from litigation by anyone that is not an employee.

"It is a silly man that pisses off the inspector."

Best regards - Al

Al
Parent - By trapdoor (**) Date 01-21-2010 05:34 Edited 01-21-2010 05:39
The code is ambiguous in the case of who cleans adjacent areas to a weld for testing and rightfully so. However the code does state that it shall be done. The problem is that in most cases in the structural steel world responsibility of cleaning welds is overlooked when contracts are written and signed and the problem is usually solved in the field by the UT tech (if he has a problem with scrubbing welds clean) and whomever is in charge of the welding operation.

Arguments from the NDE side:
     As in all cases in our society there is a liability issue with personnel using power tools if they are uninsured and lack the proper training to do so. If testing surfaces require grinding or power wire brushing you are putting yourself at risk allowing your employees to perform this task (I for one have signed more than one contract with an employer stating that I will not operate equipment, move ladders, or use power tools while performing my inspection duties).
     When working with union craft there is also the issue of taking work away from trained journeymen who have laid claim to all work associated with their trade (I have seen this go both ways depending on how "union" the job is and what part of the country your working in).
     In a shop environment there is also the problem of electrical power and use of power tools on somebody else's property (more chances for litigation). If I clean welds for testing because they refuse to and they get a lot of UT rejects things could get deteriorate to the point where the shop no longer wants you to use their power anymore then what, a generator? I don't think so.

Arguments from the fabricator/erector side:
     Money. With tight profit margins and schedules unanticipated time and manpower costs money. And since responsibility for cleaning welds for UT is not defined by contract (the code doesn't help here) it can be argued that it is not the contractors problem.

My own personnel view, as a third party UT inspector, is that I feel it is the welder/fabricators responsibility to ensure that test surfaces are suitable for UT but at the same time I am not unreasonable about the issue. I am willing to use a scraper and wire brush to clean light rust and loose spatter but I will not clean welds with tight adhering spatter or heavy rust and mill scale. And as far as work sitting out for weeks in the weather I find it hard to believe that if the weld was cleaned after welding, enough rust can accumulate that a light job with a wire brush or a scouring pad wouldn't clean it right up. I am a pretty diplomatic guy and haven't had too many problems with this issue but if a contractor refuses outright to clean welds that are in a bad condition then I will stand my ground and let the powers that be decide. More often than not the decision is with the UT tech unless he or she is making unreasonable demands.    
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 01-21-2010 17:33
It is not my intent to state that a welder does not have to clean his/her welds.  My point was that things go much better when the weld is prepped correctly for the UT tech.

That said - the word "should", not "shall", is used in that Commentary statement.  So, while it is commonly held that the welder should clean welds, anyone could be assigned to do it.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-21-2010 11:22
For multiple liability reasons, there is not a chance in hell I would do the cleaning.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 01-21-2010 11:40
Thanks everyone for all your input.

I'm at work and went back through the contract spec. and there is a statement I didn't remember in the TPI Source Quality COntrol section saying "cooperate with the testing laboratory in making all required tests".  That's a fair statement, again doesn't point the finger, but it implies help to get this function done.

Section 6 is interesting though in that as the fabricator I am only required to perform visual, so I could take that as any additional NDT testing (including preperation) should be done by the person performing the test.  Since I only have to do VT, I can perform my function as is.

Anyway, I'll get w/ the owner and get this straightened out.  Its getting stupid and time consuming now.
Chris
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-21-2010 13:43
D1.1 2008

"5.1 Fabrication: All applicable provisions of this section shall be served in the fabrication and erection of welded assemblies and structures produced by any process acceptable under this code."

"5.15 Preparation of Base Metal: 'Surfaces to be welded, and surfaces adjacent to a weld' shall also be free from loose or thick scale, slag, rust, moisture, grease, and other foreign material that would prevent proper welding or produce objectionable fumes"

"5.30.2 Cleaning of completed welds. 'tightly adherent spatter remaining after the cleaning operation is acceptable, unless it's removal is required for NDT"

Now to 6.0

6.6.4 "Specified NDT other than visual. When NDT other than visual inspection is specified in the information furnished to bidders, it shall be the Contractors responsibility to ensure that all specified welds shall meet the quality requirements of Clause 6, Part C, whichever is applicable "

Part D

6.14.3 " When UT is used, the procedure and technique shall be in conformance with part F of this section"

6.23.3 part F
"Cleanliness. All surfaces to which a search unit is applied shall be free of weld spatter, dirt, grease, oil, (other than that used by couplant, paint, and loose scale and shall have a contour allowing initimate coupling"

Bottom line, 6.6.4 says it's the contractors responsibility to meet the quality requirements of Part C. Part F says it shall be free of. You can't get through Part C without satisfying Parts D and F.

It's not the first time I've heard and have had the arguement. I've never lost it.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-21-2010 13:55
I'm sitting here wondering about how picky this guy is about the cleanliness of this material. Is he going overboard or is he being reasonable? I haven't seen too many situations where I felt that I needed a better surface to UT, usually if the surface is rough and needed some prep, it was from where the grinder was placed on edge and they weren't too careful of how smooth the surface was. If the material had been stored outside for several years, maybe it had enough flaking millscale or pitting to warrant the inspector asking for some prep...but I don't think that I have ever run up on steel that badly rusted/pitted that we were supplying for a customer. If we had some sitting in the yard for awhile, it usually gets shot blasted before we even start to work on it.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-21-2010 14:56
If it's in a shop, your experience with it is most likely accurate. I've ran into it several times in field erections. Particularly outside the continental U.S.
You are correct in that some of them are to picky, but my overall experience with those that don't know the difference between what is, and what is not an acceptable surface, usually are caught out early on as not knowing what they are doing.

From a code standpoint, it's clear to me that it's the contractors responsibility. It is also in the contractors best interest to assure a proper surface to avoid false positive rejections, and to expedite the inspection.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By hvymax (**) Date 01-22-2010 17:37
   Usually when ambiguous who does/pays issues come up I go straight to the RFI chain of owner /fabricator/vendors and anyone else it may concern and usually sooner than later everyone concedes to do/pay for/perform whatever it takes to get the job done. Once you throw it to the top the little crap usually dissapears with a few phone calls. Once you get into a mid level pissing contest everything usually goes to crap causing expensive delays and animosities that will plague the entire project. John B
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-12-2010 13:18
Boy, after reading through this I realized just how fortunate I really am.  Although I carry a variety of cleaning tools, chipping hammer, scraper, hand brushes (wire and bristle) as well as a light duty 4-1/2" grinder with wire wheels and flapper discs.  My customers provide 95% of the cleaning, but that is agreed upon up front.  On occasion I will have some stray spatter or maybe air arc slag that I take care of, or maybe a rough area that I will use a flapper wheel on.

For UT joints, I just request that heavy scale and spatter is cleaned for a distance of 7 X the wall thickness.

~thirdeye~
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Who cleans joints for UT Inspection??

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