ASME 9 Tranferability

By ross

Date 01-23-2010 23:56

ASME section is a few rows below certification.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-24-2010 00:30 Edited 01-24-2010 00:52

Hi Glen,

Generally speaking - no... But, and this is where there are exceptions to the norm... If the welder is certified as a Common Arc Welding Program welder, then in a limited sense, their qualifications are transferable to the participating companies within the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers Common Arc Welding Qualification Program...

This link will explain how the program works:

http://www.commonarc.com/help.htm

http://www.commonarc.com/welcome.htm#top

Here's the manual:

http://www.commonarc.com/manual/manual.pdf

The United Association of Pipefitters has a similar program also, and Joe Pirie would know more about that program than myself, so you might want toask him regarding their program.

Does everyone adhere to the rules??? Also - no. :(

Respectfully,
Henry

By joe pirie (***)

Date 01-24-2010 00:47

The steamfitters have a program with about 5 tests you can qualify on and most union contractors accept them.
though recently i have a buddy working on a hospital in temecula and the inspector is refusing to accept the wpqr
from the hall . I don't know the reason . Also most refineries are using the UA cert as sort of a pre requisite to get the job
and are retesting on the jobsite. Then they usually shoot the first 2 welds any problems and your back to the hall.
The heating and cooling jobs usually don't even have an inspector and if there is one they uually don't even look at the certs.
I believe if you qualify a wpqr in your own company name you can use it from Job To Job.

By js55

Date 01-24-2010 15:49

ASME Sectuion IX certifications are NOT acceptable in transfer unless the employer has a representative present during the qualification testing process.
The employer is still responsible for the testing of ALL welders in his employ.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 01-24-2010 17:48

That last statement keeps me in business!
A rig welder shows up with WPQ papers in Joe Blow Welding, the first thing I would ask for are the WPS and PQR.
Not to say those could not be pencil whipped.
I do have to admit after over 20 years of inspecting I have not seen this yet. A lot of welders with boilerhoused WPQ's but never with the supporting documentation.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 01-24-2010 17:30

If you are a self employed welder that itself rules out your papers ability to be transferred. Not to say it could not be done, but why would a fabricator pay to have you tested then you walk to another contractor. My experience with company's that want rig welder to bring their qualification papers is they seldom have qualified welding procedures. They pencil whip the WPS and PQR's and also the WPQ.
If a company has taken the time to be sure the qualifications can be transferred between contractors you can be sure the WPQ can be traced and tracked. Who ever issues the WPQ is responsible for maintaining the continuity log. In reviewing welder qualifications the first thing I look at is the date of qualification. If the date of qualification is beyond six months the next thing I look at is the continuity log.
No continuity, not qualified.
I Have no experience with the Common Arc program or welders qualified under it. But someone has to maintain the qualification records either the union or the contractor and they have someone responsible for doing it. And there has to be agreement between the different contractors to accept the qualifications and each contractor would have to have a rep at the initial qualification test. The biggest BUT would be the acceptance by the client company. If the client says no, then cross company qualifications are not acceptable.
Remember ASME
Always
Sometimes
Maybe
Except

By joe pirie (***)

Date 01-24-2010 17:51

Not sure how the steamfitters are getting around having each contractor present at the original qualification test.
since their are literally thousands of Ua signature contractors through out the USA and Canada. Not to mention new companies
that were not even in business when the original tests were qualified. Most District councils have one or more welding schools
set up with a CWI running them. either the contractor can mail in a continuity paper every 6 months or the welder can go to any UA test facility
and renedw there certs. It's all opn a computrer data base.

Now If A welder pay's for qualifies his own wpqr/ Wps procedures they would have his name and or company name on them. If he is working
as contract labor he is not technically an employee of company he is working for. Therefore as long as his certs were current and the WPQR and WPS
were acceptable for the material being welded I think the certifications would be valid on any contract job following these guidlines
Is this correct? Just my oho

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-24-2010 18:08 Edited 01-24-2010 18:17

Read the literature and then you'll understand how the Common Arc program works and how it totally abides and follows what the ASME requests to the letter... That's all I've got to say because if you take the time to read, and learn how it works instead of jumping to conclusions, and/or remaining skeptical for no other reason than not wanting to find out specifically how this program works, then nothing that I would add other than what I have just suggested would convince anyone who remains skeptical to accept the Coomon Arc program and how it works - PERIOD!!!

Now, when it comes to the welder quals being accepted by contractors who are not in the Common Arc program, then they do NOT have to accept their quals and would rquire them to qualify to their own WPS... As far as having all of the contractors representatives being present during the testing is concerned... The proctor doing the testing is qualified by all of the contractors being present at a central location (Kansas City last time I heard, but it could be different nowadays). So that upon being qualified as Common Arc contractor representatives, they can then go out to any of the regions where they originated from, and will now be considered contractor representatives for the regional Common Arc testing facilities, and all of this has been agreed upon with the ASME certification committee.

Respectfully,
Henry

By rodofgod (**)

Date 01-24-2010 20:12

Hi All!

Thanks for all your replies!

Again, I see lots of confusion! Maybe this is one question that does not have a straight forward Yes or No answer, in my humble opinion, it should!

Overhear in the UK, things seem to be quite different to across the big pond, we have over the past 10-15 years seen a BIG impact from so called Employment Agencies, I imagine you must have similar!

These are nearly always staffed by people who have little or no knowledge of welding or engineering, just supply and demand. They ask for up to date certs for MIG, FCAW and TIG usually in 6G position or even 6GR, if you have them....you have a chance of a start! I have seen more than a few fakes! Often they are years old and stamped all over the place, by illegible names and numbers! These agencies seem to rule employment for most welding jobs at the moment and it is very hard to gain direct employment with an engineering company without first going thru one of these agencies, who of course take their 'cut' from both ends!

How these are being accepted by Client companies totally baffles me, we have no system in place like 'Common Arc' as posted by Henry, which seems an excellent idea and one that would seem to suit the needs of welders who are often in several jobs per year.

Rant over!

Regards

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-25-2010 02:11 Edited 01-25-2010 02:13

A slight twist, realizing it may, or may not, apply to the self employed welder, but good background anyway... ASME IX is a qualification code, NOT a constructing code. Constructing codes ALWAYS take precidence over the qualification code, for example, from ASME B31.3:

328.2.3 Performance Qualification by Others. To avoid duplication of effort, an employer may accept a performance qualification made for another employer, provided that the Inspector specifically approves. Acceptance is limited to qualification on piping using the same or equivalent procedure wherein the essential variables are within the limits in Section IX. The employer shall obtain a copy from the previous employer of the performance qualification test record,showing the name of the employer, name of the welder or welding operator, procedure identification, date of successful qualification, and the date that the individual last used the procedure on pressure piping.

Of course, in order to qualify to ASME B31.3, the Rules of ASME IX are invoked, but the Piping Committee has, perhaps wisely, allowed the employer (who holds all responsibility in these matters) the option of accepting previous qualifications. This same option is also found in some of the other ASME Constructing codes.

By the way, the Common Arc program is a wonderful thing and I really hope it continues catching on!

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 01-25-2010 03:11

I am curious if the Common Arc program is being used in the petrochemical/refining/gas processing industry. I have not run into it in my loop but most contractors out here in gods country are non union.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-12-2010 18:06

Hi jon!

Just an update regarding this thread...
There is an organization named: National Certified Pipe Welding Bureau out of Rockville, MD... They're associated with the Mechanical Contractors Association of America and here's their web links:

http://www.mcaa.org/ncpwb/expNCPWB.pdf

http://www.mcaa.org/ncpwb/

IMHO, they're asking some high pricing for yearly membership, and there are some other aspects which seem to raise some flags also. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By north_fl_cwi (*)

Date 01-25-2010 21:07

We participate in Common Arc as a participating contractor. Myself or one of my inspectors has to be present during testing for their papers to be valid with us. Once the welder is initially qualified, any of the contractors may update him. ASME IX, QW300 deals with what is acceptable and what is not.

By G.S.Crisi (****)

Date 01-27-2010 12:54

This is another case where one should use his Good Engineering Judgement (or Horse Sense, as it's sometimes called). Depends on how reliable is the company that has awarded the qualification. If the company is a well known, respectable, prestigious firm, I myself would accept their qualification with no further questions.
Here in Brazil, for example, nobody would even imagine to reject a qualification awarded by Petrobras, the state owned oil company.
Let's make another example. Suppose that you're the maintenace manager of an Exxon refinery in the United States and you're hiring a welder who shows you a certificate issued by Shell. Would you reject it? Me neither.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil