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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / 350 Syncrowave input power
- - By thewelderson (*) Date 02-05-2010 23:19
I am wondering how accurate the Miller specs are on the 350LX Syncrowave input power when under full load. Will it actually pull 120 plus amps @220VAC? If you have used one under these conditions could you please tell me how you have it wired for input power.... breaker size, cable size, etc.

Thanks-Lou
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Parent - By weaver (***) Date 02-06-2010 00:55
i know for a fact the 250 will pull 98 amps, the company i used to contract to, bought me one , we dialed it in with a sparky with an amp clamp.  they had to put in a larger service.  so 350lx 120 amps i would not be surprised.. regards shannon
Parent - By weldwade (***) Date 02-06-2010 01:29
It is accurate. I would have a qualified electrician inspect your service and give you recommendations/bid on the proper modifications needed. You can damage your machine with undervoltage or worse start an electrical fire due to undersize wiring.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-06-2010 04:00
Follow the wire size & fuse/breaker information in the manual. The machine will actually pull more amps at max output than the plate on the side of the machine shows, as the tag shows the line draw at RATED output, not MAX output.

If You must run the machine on smaller wire, use the proper fuse/breaker for the wire and limit the machine settings to stay below the fuse/breaker amperage.

I ran an old Miller AB/P 600 machine in My home shop for years, there is NO WAY that I could wire it up for the 200 amps it would draw at rated output, or the 300 amps it would draw at max. I kept it in low range and it worked fine on the #6 wire I fed it with.

If You don't have or have access to an amprobe, buy cheap one from Harbor Freight for about $20. It will save You from serious problems.
- - By thewelderson (*) Date 02-07-2010 15:01
Thank you everyone for your reply. I should be fine with my service for the machine. I only have a 200amp single phase service to my shop, but I have a dedicated 125amp sub for this machine.

-Lou
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-08-2010 03:26
You will be fine, as the machine only uses power in relation to the output, and You probably won't max it out often.
Parent - - By thewelderson (*) Date 02-08-2010 21:23
You are right Dave... I will very seldom ever see full output. In fact this machine falls into the category "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" for me. Thanks-Lou
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-09-2010 15:33 Edited 02-09-2010 15:38
Power in equals power out plus internal losses (heat).

An easy way to approximate the power requirements (at the machine) is to consider the power loss as 10% and simply solve the equation:

    (Arc Voltage X Welding Amperage / primary voltage) x 110% = primary amperage required.

The equation isn't exactly correct, but it will give you a rough idea of the requirements for the input.

  example:  ((25 volts x 150 amps) / 220 volts) x 110% = about 19 amp draw

for the full capacity of the machine (rated capacity) as listed on the nameplate:

       Max volts x Amps / primary voltage =  ((rated Amps x 0.04 +20) x Max Amps / primary voltage) x 110% = required input amps

       ((350x0.04 +20) x 350 / 220) x 110% = required input amps
       (34 x 350)/220) x 110%
       54 x 1.1
       59.5 or about 60 amps

By the way, the term 350 x 0.04 + 20 is the maximum output voltage of the 350 amp welder when under load.

Like I said, it is just an approximation that doesn't include line losses that have to be considered,  heat generation, etc.. That's where the electrician comes into the picture. He will properly size the cable based on the nameplate information.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-10-2010 02:26
Al, I have never run across that load voltage formula before, can You explain it, or is it just one of those rules of thumb?

From what I have seen based on the transformer machines I have, a CV machine operates at a higher efficiency than a CC machine.
My 300 amp CV machine draws 58 amps @230V at 300amp 28V output, but my 300 amp CC machine draws 120 amps @ 230v at 300amps 32 V output[draws 96 amps with PFC]. A slightly newer cc machine draws 112 amps [84 with PFC] at 300A 32V output. My 200 amp CV machine is porportionally lower as well. All I can figure, is that the transformer primary in a CV machine is inherently more efficient, and aparently doesn't need power factor corection. Comments?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-10-2010 14:21
I am no expert on welding power supplies, so I am not going to try to explain something I know very little about. I am sure it has something to do with the circuitry of the two types of power supplies. Perhaps the difference is the inclusion of the saturable reactor core in some CC power supply that produces more heat and more power loss as well as the capacitors and other devises used for power factor correction. Take a look at the Welding Handbook on welding processes. They have a pretty good section on power supplies. There are different ways to transform the high voltage, low current supplied by the utilities into low voltage / high current we use for welding.

The equation is taken from the AWS Handbook as well. I find it very useful for sizing power supplies to be used in the field where I have to contend with very long welding leads. The long welding leads translates into voltage losses that have to be taken into account when sizing the power supply. Basically the equation gives you the maximum voltage the power supply can provide when it is under load. The voltage listed, as OCV on the nameplate is the maximum voltage at the terminals when the machine is on, but there is no load, i.e., no one is actually welding. The bottom line is that when you have long welding leads, as is  the case in ship yards or construction sites, there are substantial voltage loses that have to be considered. Therefore the power supply has to have sufficient amperage capacity to provide the voltage required at the welding arc as well as the losses due to the long cables, corroded connections, lose connections, etc.

The information I provided in the previous post was intended to give a person a means of determining the approximate draw at the welding power supply. It does not take into consideration the requirements of the electrical code or the length of the cable from the main circuit breaker box to the welding machine, etc. People always seem to question the information provided by the nameplate on the welding machine. The information on the nameplate is what should be used when determining the actual power requirements of the particular power supply. As you observed, more sophisticated power supplies require more power than a simple power supply that uses a movable secondary core or fixed taps. The saturable reactors produce more heat, which translates into higher amperages for a given input voltage.

The Welding Handbook also mentions that the CC power supplies do require power factor correction due to the inductive reactance.

Best regard - Al
Parent - By Sberry (***) Date 02-18-2010 17:07
Ideally a number 1 cord and the 125 breaker you have will be fine.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / 350 Syncrowave input power

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