IBC and AISC

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-11-2010 19:06

I am most curious about the IBC shop testing self-certification. What is this talking about?

By eekpod

Date 02-11-2010 20:16

John,
sorry I can't help much, I have not dealt much w/ the IBC. I have a copy of it but haven't needed to dive into the guts of it in awhile. I would imagine that they would recognize the AISC certification in regards to a self certified company. After all AISC is an outside entity coming in auditing your policies and procedures to make sure they are applicable against and known requirement.
I have never heard of a self-certification shop.
Keep me posted if you come up w/ anything interesting.
Chris

PS are you AWS certifed shop as well? I would think they would recognize that also, but who knows.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-11-2010 20:19

Yes. But I can't get anyone in Miami to call me back about the certificate they owe us. We haven't received one for the past couple of years. We used to get the renewal and cert not long after our AISC audit every year.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 02-11-2010 20:14

John,

I am certainly no expert on this question, but some things stand out to me. I know that staff from AISC monitor this forum but I don't know who they are or if they ever participate in any of our discussions.

But, as to your question:
IBC is the International Building Code which is part of ICC, International Code Counsel. I believe, from their own Preface, that all they do is develope comprehensive codes to be adopted by local jurisdictions around the world. They themselves do not implement nor certify any trade to any part of the code or its' applications.

AISC is one of several who certify, through independant auditors, trades to varying criteria. This, as you well know, is done per their QC/QA program and other parts of their written and practical operation depending upon the type of work done and what is written in the operations manuals of the shop compared to the type of certification desired.

Thus, it would appear to me, My Own Opinion, that AISC certification would indeed fit the bill as to your question of rather AISC can be the certifying agency according to IBC Section 1704.

Now, some of the other wording is strange. At least to me. "IBC shop self testing self-certification"? I don't follow. Maybe an RFI is in order. Someone entered something a little wrong. The last sentence is understandable, not certified, must have special inspections per IBC Section 1704 especial 1704.2 and 1704.3. So I would think you could conclude from the flow that 'yes' AISC certification covers the aspects they are desiring.

Maybe someone here has more specific information, but I would think a clarification from the customer, engineer, job specs originator would be in order and justified.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By eekpod

Date 02-11-2010 20:18

now I know that you can get an inspection for structural and bolting through the ICC, I'm curious if they do facilities as well.
Chris

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-11-2010 20:30

I'm leaning towards the lines that the Building Official is the authority governing the certification of the facility.

I suppose that I need to find out who this individual is and get his blessing on our shop through one of his representatives(special inspectors)?

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 02-11-2010 23:20

John,

I believe, since you edited your first post, that the 'Approved Agency' is a company with a program in place for complete inspections which also has an engineer on staff and a Level III UT, MT, & PT tech on staff to cover all inspections and testing that may apply. Notice the definitions under Section 1702. When registering with a city to be classed as a Special Inspector there are many ways, classifications, and trades you can be approved for if you have all the right certifications, education, & experience. It also is based upon your company QC program (as an inspection agency) and the qualifications of the people you have on staff. So that is in reference to those who do the inspections under Section 1704 for the shops who are not pre-approved and/or certified through AISC, AWS, city Building Officials such as LA Pre-Approved Fabricator Shop, in order to bypass the in shop special inspections.

Your current shop certifications should be all they are looking for. Thus, the agency reference you were looking for is NOT the AISC but an agency which does independent inspections and is approved by the city Building Officials in whose jurisdiction the job is for to carry out Special Inspections which you should not need since you are a certified shop. But you probably need to clear your pre-approved fabricator shop status with the Inspection Agency and possibly the City Officials.

Chris, I don't believe IBC certifies shops even though they certify people to inspect to their codes (which also includes AWS D1.1 and AISC Construction Manual). Could be wrong, but I can't find it.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By rfieldbuilds (**)

Date 02-13-2010 01:01

Right, IBC doesn't certify shops. that term "certified" is one found to be acceptable to the building official. Now, that being said, an AISC certified shop would be looked upon in a beneficial way.
ICC-IAS does have an equivelent but not reciprical (to AISC) type or accredidation. They actually have numerous accreditations depending on what you do.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-17-2010 16:16

I got word back from the AISC today and they told me that there isn't any reciprocity per se', however the person that I spoke with said that he has never heard of any Building Official, to date, that would not accept the AISC's certification as part of the required criteria in becoming an approved fabricator.

Now, I just need to figure out the proper channels to travel through to get our facility approved by the local Building Official who has jurisdiction over our project. We are a just a sub and the chain of command goes on up...gotta figure out how all of this will be handled.

By swnorris (****)

Date 02-17-2010 18:23

John,

Here's a link to a list of the Virginia Building Offlcials:

http://www.dhcd.virginia.gov/BuildingandFireCodesTraining/PDFs/Building_Officials_Directory.pdf

Also, here's a link to the Virginia Building Code for Construction, which is largely based on the IBC.

https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Virginia/Construction/Construction_Frameset.html

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-17-2010 18:57

Thanks Scott...that list of names was useful. I gave that to our contract review team...they are working on it as I type.

By thcqci

Date 02-18-2010 21:20

Not checked in for a while. Regards all.

We have been struggling with this a bit here at our shop. Had a couple of projects that required an outside inspector (although not a SPECIAL Inspector) even though we are AISC certified. Finally crossed bridge last year and became AISC certified. Some here wanted to be IAS certified and some (including me) leaned towards AISC certification. We chose AISC, but IAS is an orginization linked with IBC/ICC that does fabricator audits and accreditation also. Seems very similar to AISC with the biggest difference I saw is the IAS re-audit is unannounced between 2 and 4 times/year versus and AISC scheduled audits. See 4.2 in link. http://www.iasonline.org/PDF/AC/ac172.pdf

My personal opinion and loyalty is biased overwhelmingly toward the people who actually wrote the codes and standards and spent the money to develop our industry (such as AWS, AISC, RCSC, ACI, etc.) and against any IBC, ICC, IAS orginzations which have done nothing except compiled all theses AWS, AISC, ACI, etc. codes and standards into their own book, sold it to juristictions nationwide and then elevated their own special inspectors above industry established inspectors such as AWS-CWIs (where do they get off thinking their own SPECIAL Inspectors are so much more qualified than AWS CWIs??? Even more than SCWIs!!!). I have steadfastly stay away from IBC/ICC whenever possible.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-19-2010 12:17

Hey Doug...glad to see you checking in.

By G.S.Crisi (****)

Date 02-19-2010 18:49

Excuse me, Gentlemen, for my ignorance. What's IBC? AISC I've known since a long time ago.
Giovanni S. Crisi

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-19-2010 18:52

Giovanni,
IBC is the International Building Code which is part of ICC, International Code Counsel.

By James Corbin (**)

Date 02-19-2010 21:09

I'll agree with Doug, Here is a clip from the IBC 2009 also stating their "Approved Special Inspection Agency". This will not be someone from AISC as I also have inquired ICC on this subject several years ago.

1704.2.2 Fabricator approval. Special inspections
required by Section 1704 are not required where the work is
done on the premises of a fabricator registered and approved
to perform such work without special inspection. Approval
shall be based upon review of the fabricator's written procedural
and quality control manuals and periodic auditing of
fabrication practices by an approved special inspection
agency. At completion of fabrication, the approved fabricator
shall submit a certificate of compliance to the building
official stating that the work was performed in accordance
with the approved construction documents.

By HgTX

Date 02-19-2010 22:34

And, of course, by "International" they mean all 50 of the United States. Last I knew they were trying to replace it with the UBC, the Universal Building Code, also applicable only in the US.

Hg

By eekpod

Date 02-20-2010 02:36

oh just get it approved to the farm code and make it easy for everybody. :)

By 1316

Date 02-20-2010 04:04 Edited 02-20-2010 04:11

The International Code Council (ICC) was established in 1994 as a non-profit organization dedicated to developing a single set of comprehensive and coordinated national model construction codes. The founders of the ICC are Building Officials and Code Administrators International, Inc. (BOCA), International Conference of Building Officials (ICBO), and Southern Building Code Congress International, Inc. (SBCCI). Since the early part of the last century, these non-profit organizations developed three separate sets of model codes used throughout the United States. Although regional code development has been effective and responsive to our country’s needs, the time came for a single set of codes. The nation’s three model code groups responded by creating the International Code Council and by developing codes without regional limitations; the International Codes. The UBC stands for the Uniform Building Code not the Universal, this code was developed by the ICBO (international council of building officals) and was replaced by the IBC. In addition to the International Building Code the ICC also develops the following codes and standards;

International Energy Conservation Code
International Existing Building Code
International Fire Code
International Fuel Gas Code
International Mechanical Code
International Plumbing Code
International Private Sewage Disposal Code
International Property Maintenance Code
International Residential Code
International Wildland Urban Interface Code
International Zoning Code

By HgTX

Date 02-22-2010 16:20

Your first sentence makes my (flawed) point: "developing a single set of comprehensive and coordinated NATIONAL model construction codes". "National" does not mean "international", even when the nation in question is the US. What countries are represented on this "international" council?

Just because a couple of other countries adopt it doesn't make it an international document, developed by an international community. Hell, Florida used some specs I wrote for the state of Texas; that doesn't make my spec a National Code. If someone in Toronto used it, that wouldn't make it international either.

If any other country called their national code "international", y'all would be complaining about it.

Hg

By thcqci

Date 02-22-2010 20:17

I also have to take issue with IBC/ICC or whoever "developing" much of anything. They compiled other peoples work into one document and called it their own. They simply use what other organizations spent money and time to develop. I am currently looking thru Chapter 22 - Steel of my 2006 IBC. I see ASTM, AISC (which also includes AWS), ASCE, ACI, SJI, AISI. But no where do I see IBC/ICC spent a dime to develop any of this. They simply compiled it into one book and sold it to juristictions. But then you turn around and go to Chapter 17 and have use their SPECIAL inspectors. There is no reciprocity with AWS for CWIs. It matters not if you are a CWI, you must still take their test to become SPECIAL! What a crock!!! About a year ago, I emailed ICC to ask a question and was told they would not answer my question unless I was and ICC member. I have no use for them but unfortunately, they are probably here to stay as long as juristictions adopt their code and engineers write them into job specs.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 02-22-2010 20:51

thcqci,

I think you better check some things out a little closer.

I am a 'Special Inspector' for Structural Steel and Welding in our area and all I have is an AWS/CWI. Nothing of theirs.

Now, that being said, it may not be the same everywhere. Different jurisdictions can change, amend, modify the IBC code to fit their own desires then adopt 'As Modified'. When I contacted the local Building Authority here they gave me a very intimidating packet that described MOST of what they wanted included in a 'Request for Approval for Special Inspections'. Many of the agencies either are engineers or have one on staff, do many other things besides welding, and have AWS, IBC/ICCBO, ASNT, ACI, and many other certifications among their core people.

I see nowhere in 1702,03, or 04 where AWS CWI's are excluded from being 'Special Inspectors'. In fact, it states in 1704.3.1 Welding that the inspection is to be in compliance with AWS D1.1. Then goes on to say that the BASIS for welding inspector qualification shall be AWS D1.1. Once qualified there all you need to do is approach your local Building Authority and see what requirements, qualifications, and especially PAPERWORK you have to send in.

My total packet was about 100 pages long. Included a letter of request for approval, cover letter, resume (they want to know your background), documentation of education, copy of your CWI, experience doing welding inspections, licenses, insurances, a detailed QA Manual (be prepared, but ASNT NDT inspectors have it worse than VT guys because they have to document all the calibration of their equipment per codes), a listing of your code library, tools, Samples of your report forms, acceptance/rejection standards, and probably all your bank accounts (NO, JUST KIDDING, about the bank account. Everything else is required.)

BUT, you don't need their cert to be a Special Inspector in my area. Check yours out closely before getting dogmatic about that claim. And PLEASE, take this in the spirit in which it is intended. This may just be the way my area does it. But, I don't see how they can apply the code that way in other jurisdictions. I agree, it is a pain we have to buy thier book as well as all the others when all they have done is compile the info from everyone else. They must think we all have deep pockets.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By thcqci

Date 02-22-2010 22:07

Sorry for sounding dogmatic. Mostly just in favor of those that invented the game getting the credit not some johnny-come-lately organization taking credit for what other people researched, developed and paid for.

I am sure CWIs can become ICC certified special inspectors which is what I was refering to. As I read it, even if you are an AWS CWI, you still have to take the bolting exam and then the welding inspector exam to become ICC certified welding inspector. Is this not correct? It would be my personal belief there should be some reciprocity with AWS for certification of welding inspectors. I will grant you that should include experience with structural steel inspections since this is what the certified special inspector status is aimed at. I don't have any of the ICC paperwork close by me now, but I don't recall any allowances to skip the ICC welding inspector exam because you have a AWS CWI certificate.

I am not aware that there is a way to gain special inspector status outside the certified route thru ICC. Does each juristiction have their own criteria? I am sure a juristion or an engineer can look at an individual and determine if they are satisfied with that individual is capable of performing a given inspection or inspections.

Further, I am sure not all special inspectors are created equal just as all CWIs are not equal in capability. It is obvious from your posts in this forum that your experience speaks for itself. But the 2 SPECIAL inspectors I have had the "priviledge" to meet in my shop were truely special and had no business having their "authority", in my humble opinion. One was a very young kid, with almost no experience (as evidenced by some of his basic questions), that passed a test and was flown in from CA to FL. He was not here to perform any quality inspection; he was here for a vacation to FL and could not wait to get out of my shop to head to beach or wherever. The other did not have any significant experience either. I see nothing in the ICC documents saying you have to have any time of experience as you do to become and AWS CWI.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 02-22-2010 22:47 Edited 02-22-2010 22:50

Okay, I think some things need to be clarified, I hope I can do this in a satisfactory manner.

A 'Special Inspector' is not an inspector certified by the ICC, though someone certified by the ICC can become a 'Special Inspector'. A 'Special Inspector' is an individual working for an 'Approved Agency' as specified in Section 109, 1702.1, 1703.1, and 1704.1 (other places as well, these are the main references). According to IBC all they are required to do is satisfy the Local Building Authority as to their ability to competently accomplish the inspection work at hand. You do not need to be qualified to ALL inspections classes. In our area there are ten: Concrete, Concrete Testing, Epoxy, Fire Proofing, Masonry, Soils, Structural Steel, Welding, Post Tensioning, and UT. When an engineer calls for other tests in the job specs it is dealt with on an as needed basis to satisfy both engineer and Building Authority.

I do believe I understand PART of your description in that, while ASNT will take your money and call you an ASNT Level II VT inspector without taking their test, ICC has no such provision. But you can still be a 'Special Inspector'. That is not dependent upon who's certification you have. Just that your local BA recognizes your ability to competently accomplish the task.

Bolting, notice in '1704.3.3 High-strength bolts' that they "shall be periodically inspected in accordance with AISC specifications." No where does it say what, if any, certifications the inspector MUST have to accomplish this. And our local people are accepting AWS Bolting Endorsement as equal to IBC. So, support AWS, not IBC.

Not sure what you mean by "I don't recall any allowances to skip the ICC welding inspector exam because you have a AWS CWI certificate." No one has said anything about SKIPPING anything. You just don't always NEED it. Just like you don't always NEED ASNT Level II VT. All it is for MOST of us is extra money for no good reason. Now, there are some jobs that are much easier to land if you have all of them. But, how much money do you have to spend and how much time to keep taking more classes, seminars, and exams to stay qualified. Now, you will never, unless they begin some reciprocity, be an IBC/ICCBO SSW inspector without taking their test. But, depending upon what exactly your goals are, you may not need it.

Next, Just as AWS has experience qualifications, so does MY local Building Authority to be an Approved Agency.

This can become the same type of issue as to rather to get Pre-Approved, Certified Shop Fabricator status to avoid the 'Special Inspector' coming into your shop. As a TPI I have been a 'Continuous' Owner representative in Approved Fabricator Shops. If the Owner wants it, he gets it. Doesn't matter what certs you have. BUT, a TPI is only there to document the in house QC program. Not to be the substitute for the in house QC. I am Quality ASSURANCE, NOT, Quality Control. There is a difference between the two. Though occassionally you can hardly tell it. Their QC is documented in their Approved Fabricator Shop status. I am not it.

Hope I made sense. And sorry for the hijack John. Kinda related info anyway.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 02-23-2010 12:34

Brent, Doug...no worries about the hi-jack....I'm learning and soaking in all I can about this, I'm just sitting back and reading along.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 02-23-2010 15:20

Doug,

I was just going through some print packs this morning and thought I would point this out; in the general notes for the Structurals the second section of my packs addresses the 'Basis For Design' and states roughly-'2006 International Building Code (IBC) with city/county amendments.'

They do not HAVE to adopt the IBC in whole. It can be amended any way they want. Every jurisdiction has several pages, sometimes as thick as the code book, of amendments. This includes the areas of Special Inspections and how they want to qualify Special Inspectors as well as the application of the codes to the work being performed.

When you call for a 'Special Inspection' you may do it through the Local Building Authority, General Contractor, or other designated routes. It is usually all set up before hand and at least part of the info is in the Job Specs. There are 'hold points' for all the trades on a job that must get inspected before work can continue. The LBA takes the reports from the SI and considers all to be well per the report. They are not experts in all fields either and can get into conflict of interest in some cases. They are just making sure everyone else does their job and can question the SI and their skills if they spot something they don't like. There are then other inspections that are completed by the LBA. The difference is in what the Special Inspections area of the job specs calls for and how it lines up with the codes of that particular building trade for inspections. I have to compare everything with the General Notes, Contract Documents, AISC Manual, AWS D1.1 and 1.3, 1.4 and others, the IBC, and city/county amendments. Sometimes there can be some pretty strong emotions flaring when trying to balance things with city officials, contractors, other inspectors, and myself. Varied opinions, need for inspections of work that another trade already covered up, all kinds of things.

Hope this has added more info that will make the Special Inspectors job easier to understand. NOT that I am an EXPERT at it.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By thcqci

Date 02-23-2010 15:54

Well, this certainly sheds a new bright light on the subject because it had been mine and our company's understanding that one needed to be ICC certified special welding inspector to perform these inspections. Not that one could not inspect because they were not ICC certiifed, but that the juristiction would only accept ICC certified inspector reports. That is who has been sent to our shop previously, almost exclusively from west coast projects.

I will have to forward this new insight back thru our channels and start addressing this issue differently in the future. We have only dealt with this on a handful of jobs since apparently the pushing of these IBC special inspections is much bigger on west coast than in FL. But we ship steel everywhere so I know it is coming. I have a job that is going to HI and am dealing with as we speak today that has this same issue. This will change how I deal with it.

I still stand by my opinion that ICC should have reciprocity with AWS just as Canada does with AWS with welding inspectors. There certainly could be stipulations that the CWI had to take exam with D1.1 as the upcoming structural inspector endorsement from AWS apparently will.

Apparently, I was not as big an expert on it as I thought I was either. Anyway, thank you for your explainations. I respect your opinions and you have stated your cases well. And, I will try not to have a biased opinion of other special inspectors in the future based upon some past experiences with SPECIAL inspectors.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 02-23-2010 17:41

Doug,

Here is another thought in line with what you just posted.

Get an Independant Testing Agency in your area to get the paperwork and qualify as an Approved Agency for the main city you do business with on the Left (I mean West) Coast. Then they can be the go to people to check work going out west without paying travel for someone from that city.

We are in AZ. Either I and/or a guy I do a lot of work for are Approved for most of AZ, LA, San Diego, and many other cities. We can do the inspections in shops here for pre-fab structural going to any of those cities and we can do the erection inspections there if we get/want that part of the contract. Many inspection companies in CA call us and ask us to sub for them doing the inspections here so they don't have to send someone and pay all the travel expenses. Depends upon their work load and how much they want to keep their own people busy and can justify the expense.

Just a thought. I'll see if I can get you some more info on this but you should be able to contact any of the cities within whose jurisdiction who are performing work and get all the info you need.

Have a Great Day, Brent