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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Crane fabrication question
- - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-18-2010 21:15
lets pose a hypothetical question here:

A gantry crane was fabricated and proof load tested and passed.

In an audit it came up that a certified welder and WPS was not used, no NDT has taken place.

what are the courses of action one can take?
Since this was an unathorized welder and an unathourized procedure. Under D1.1 is the hand forced to make this a cut-out?   I.E, could NDT be done retroactively along with authorized repairs (if neccessary) to CYA.  Seems someone let some maintenance guys have a field day with fabrication without looking into the code legality.

all strictly hypothetical...
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-18-2010 22:03
hypothetically speaking; if the eluded to crane ever failed, not even the proof load will be enough to prevent the forthcoming lawsuits.
Hypothetically of course.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-19-2010 05:25
Sell it to the Chinese. A little payback is good for the soul.

Al
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 02-19-2010 14:00
You could go a retroactively test the welder who made the welds, this would at least confirm he has the minimal skills to make an acceptable weld.  This doesn't really prove anything other than he has the skills now, dod he have them then? who knows.
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-19-2010 18:53
Don't be so sure, Al, the Chinese may resell the crane to the United States. They're damn smart at doing business.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-19-2010 19:04
What I would do.
Cut out all of the welds and remake them again? Awful impractical.
So what? What I would do is to make a careful ND examination of the welds, both Xray AND UT.
If the NDT's are OK, then I'd accept the welds, even if they were made by a non certified welder following a non approved procedure. If the NDT's show that one or more welds have to be remade, remake them using a certified welder and procedure and repeat the load test. 
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-19-2010 19:16
Another sound solution to a problem that occurs all too often from our good friend Giovanni.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 13:50
A passable NDE exam, does not equal a quality weld. NDE will not prove good or bad metallurgy, only that the weld is free of unacceptable discontinuities.
Without the WPS and welder qualification to fall back on, the NDE exams would be insufficient to prove anything.

My opinion for what it's worth.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-20-2010 14:23 Edited 02-20-2010 16:04
You're right, CW, but then what would you do? Throw the whole crane into the scrap pile? Would your managers accept that solution?
Sometimes we engineers should be flexible in our judgements.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 16:42
I would rather be fired than risk the failure of a crane and subsequent risk of death to a few or many.
Under no circumstance would I buy into just NDE alone.

On the other hand, there is the option of:
1) Qualifying a PQR/WPS to what was believed to be used.
2) Cutting samples out of the suspect welds for mechanical and metallurgical evaluation.
3) NDE
4) Assuming the above tested good, patching the cut areas with the qualified WPS and certified materials and final NDE.

However if the above failed, the whole thing should be scrapped if the whole thing was put together in that manner. Anything else would be verging on the criminal in my opinion.

It was the managers who screwed up to begin with pushing a schedule that let slip the proper procedures. I do my level best to not allow someone else's screw up and incompetence become my emergency.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-20-2010 15:26
Gerald says"

"A passable NDE exam, does not equal a quality weld."

Funny though how its a common practice for\

A passable NDE exam to be used to qualify a welder eh?

Happens every day.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 16:32
Yes it does happen every day. Every day welders using a previously qualified WPS perform qualification test to assure their ability to a.) adhere to a WPS, and b.) prove their ability to make a sound weld (using a previously qualified WPS).

Using NDE alone is putting the cart before the horse, then shooting the horse.
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 02-20-2010 16:56
Unqualified welders making welds, which pass NDT is not the end of the world.
It is more critical if they weld without a qualified procedure - or is it?

We are so busy testing welders and procedures that we sometimes forget to verify the proper use of the qualified (and expensive) procedures.
Way to often the WPS is just a piece of paper to be put in the final documentation, and way to often it is only put there because another procedure says it has to put there.

I both qualify welding procedures and do "on site" inspection work, a few times it has happen that I have made WPS' for more than $20.000 for a contractor and later done the inspection work as clients rep. My very expensive procedures where only to be found in the documentation files.

In my very own experience I have found that it is on few materials it REALLY matters.
Most of the failures I see is not because of bad welds during erection, but more due to fattigue or service conditions.

3.2
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-20-2010 17:12
Tell you what, lets all stop bothering with those pesky WPS's and while we are at it, lets put an end to the qualification of welders, and NDE. Let's see how well that plan works. after all, we can just load or proof test it, no problems.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 02-20-2010 18:01
Who said anything about stop WPS, NDE and qualification tests?
Tell you what, stop reading between the lines.

3.2
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-19-2010 21:01
This is what I figured, some combination of NDT and  rework of any faulty welds. With an approved procedure and welder.

This is what happens when people take short cuts.  It ends up becoming longer in the end.
Parent - - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 02-19-2010 21:59
Why are you folks mentioning  D 1.1   ?

There is a perfectly good  crane document called AWS  D 14. 1   called " Specification for Welding of Industrial and Mill Cranes and
Other Material Handling Equipment "

That is where I'd start -
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-19-2010 23:33 Edited 02-20-2010 16:03
ravi,
the Specification you mention requires that crane welding be done by qualified welders following a qualified procedure. Metarinka's problem is that his crane was welded by non qualified welders following a non qualified procedure. What to do in that case? Throw the crane into the scrap pile and make a new one?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 02-22-2010 16:44
I like CWI555's suggestion to run retroactive PQR & welder qual.  Assuming there's a record of what was done in production.  If they don't even know what they did, then maybe this is a good object lesson in why you read and follow the specification.

Turn it around to the fabricator:  I'm the prospective owner of this thing you've made, how are you going to convince me it's any good?  If we assume that the code requirements are meaningful, how do you convince me that disregarding them won't hurt my product (or any of my employees it might fall down on)?

In this particular case, if I were the owner, I'd want the full NDE at a minimum, but I don't think that would be enough.  Possibly the kind of destructive testing CWI555 mentions, but (1) I'd want the fabricator to provide engineer-stamped calculations showing how the samples could be taken & repaired without harming my product (2) I'm not really sure what kind of tests on a small sample would tell me what I want to know.  In all likelihood, unless (1) & (2) could be addressed, I wouldn't buy it.  And I wouldn't go for cutting out and redoing all the welds; that makes a mess and may do more harm than good.

And I wouldn't feel guilty about rejecting your product, either.  Think about it from the owner's point of view--if the spec wasn't followed, and the owner accepted the product anyway, and something went wrong, it's the owner who'll be sued even before the fabricator.  Why should I accept that kind of liability because of someone else's screwup?

Hg
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-22-2010 20:54
The documentation I have from Osha calls out D1.1 for welder certification on load bearing cranes. I don't think d14.1 handles welder certification?
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-23-2010 12:50
I've been reading along, but haven't expressed any opinions yet. OSHA 1910.179, 1910.180, 1910.181 deal with material handling(cranes).

Here is what OSHA 1910.179(l) Maintenance has to say----(1) Preventative maintenance. A preventative maintenance program based upon the crane mfg's recommendation shall be established.
1910.179(l)(3) Adjustments and repairs. (i) Any unsafe conditions disclosed by the inspection requirements of paragraph (j) of this section shall be corrected before operation of the crane is resumed. Adjustments and repairs shall be done only by designated personnel.

Definition: (1910.179(a)(35) Designated means selected or assigned by the employer or the employer's representative as being qualified to perform specific duties.

I read this to say that the employer is taking on the responsibility to ensure that the designated personnel performing the welding is qualified to perform this task. Employer is on the hook if anything bad arises out of this situation at a later date.

If I was the employer, I would make darn certain that this designated person is qualified to perform this task.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-23-2010 17:47
Most of us make our living in applying a welding code in some manner or another - so we all assume some code must apply.  But is that really the case?  Often it is not.  I think the real questions are: Was the welding required to be in accordance with any code in the first place (D1.1, OSHA, local regulations, etc)?  Did the audit have anything to do with maintenance welding?

Yes, I know, liability, assurances, safety and all that.  I like going home with all of my fingers and toes, and I all too vividly recall applying pressure to the artery of a co-worker who cut half his foot off when a heavy weldment crashed down, so I'm not trying to be cavalier about safety in any of this.

I know of one manufacturer that doesn't require any weld testing, they shove some parts in front of a prospective employee and see if they can weld it to their liking.  They guarantee their products and have a good reputation for customer satisfaction. 

If the gantry is being sold to someone else, that may change things but what an owner does on company premises is largely unregulated. Does the fact that a maintenace worker did the welding mean the welds are bad?  We can't say from here.
I do think it's a good idea to test the welder, and do some NDE on the welds.  I would also inspect the welds on a periodic basis to make sure nothing is coming apart.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-23-2010 21:22
In this hypothetical situation

OSHA calls out very strict regulations in terms of proper crane erection and fabrication procedures.  In the pertinent section:

OSHA GISO* Sec. 4885 (c) (1)  (B), referencing ANSI B30-2 1996.  The section in ANSI concerning weld fabrication is found in Sec. 2-1.4 Crane Construction, 2-1.4.1 Welded Construction; “All welding procedures and welding Operator qualifications to be used…shall be in accordance with ANSI / AWS D1.1, except as modified by ANSI / AWS 14.1”… the design parameters should conform as specified in the AISC Manual for Steel Construction, and CMAA Specification #70 (Crane Manufacturers Association of America), ANSI B30 2-1.4.2...

paraphrased.

In no unclear terms should a crane be fabricated without a WPS or certified welder.  I'm not sure where you work, but this type of disregard could end in Loss of life or limb.

the issue here is what to do with a crane that has been fabricated without a certified welder.
purely hypothetical...
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-24-2010 23:06
Wow! I guess I've been slammed!

I thought I did explain my position on safety but I guess I must not have done a good job of it.  However...I do not see how my opinion, and an experience with a previous company should earn the insinuation that my current company is lax on safety.

Your words clearly indicate the nothing was done right except the load test.  You seem to have been anxious to quote me over the head with the OSHA specification which I take to indicate that you are "strictly by the book".  So why are you considering what it would take to circumvent the code?  Scrap it.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-25-2010 14:45
Since this is "all strictly hypothetical..." to quote Metarinka, I would hypothetically scrap the crane.

The contractor responsible for the "mess" that has been created may hypothetically go out of business because of poor management decisions, but isn't that the way our business world is suppose to function? That is an underlying principal of the capitalist system, unless you are a mega-bank that contributed millions to the Republican Party and needs hypothetical TARP money ("This is not a bailed-out!" according to the mouth piece for the Fed.) because of risky management decisions that caused catastrophic financial ruin for untold thousands of people.

When all is said and done, the management team can liquidate the company’s assets and pay themselves a handsome bonus for a job less than well done, just like Wall Street.

All hypothetically speaking of course.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 02-25-2010 19:18
Lets all hear it for  Metarinka  -

I isn't everyday  that someone gets to scrap a  CRANE    !
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-25-2010 20:18 Edited 02-26-2010 16:03
"Lets all hear it for  Metarinka  -

It isn't everyday that someone gets to scrap a CRANE!"

hypothetically speaking of course. LOL

jrw159
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-25-2010 22:53
"Ischcibble!!! :) :) :)" Which means; "Are you as confused as much as I am??? ;)" Hypothetically speaking of course!!! :) :) :) And the beat goes on...

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-25-2010 23:15
hypothetically,
I got a lot of back lash for discovering this, no one likes a 23 yr old engineer to tell them they fabricated something wrong.
Strictly hypothetical though. In the real world welders always are certified, always use a WPS and never try to cheat.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-26-2010 10:33
Your tag line "Welding Engineer, Certified Welding forum browser, Qualified Scrap producer" Hypothetically of course.
Parent - By nantong (**) Date 02-26-2010 13:08
How about "Risk Assessment"? What material is used? What thickness? Which welding consumables? Any record of atual welding conditions? What is the legal aspect on this? As has been said previously NDE can only determine condition of welds at time of test and cannot ascertain metalurgical conditions. Before a decision can be made about Fitness for Purpose many issues such as I have mentioned have to be considered.
Parent - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 02-26-2010 16:37
I am particularly enamoured  with  QUALIFIED  SCRAP  PRODUCER  -

or as I said to somone once  -  "     .  .  .   are all of your workers busily turning turning good metal into  scrap  ?  "
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-26-2010 16:46
Perhaps I should change it to qualified scrap finder?  I have a history at this facility for finding game changing mistakes during welding audits.
Parent - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 02-26-2010 16:39
Does your facility have any other  cranes  ?
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Crane fabrication question

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