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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Solar B Flux......
- - By yorkiepap (***) Date 03-08-2010 00:21
Hey guys,
I decided to post this query in the tech section as it applies to an understanding of a welding reaction. I had a customer bring over (3) Anheuser-Busch SS beer barrels to have SS threaded couplers welded to them. There are a total of (10) couplers, (5), (3), (2) holes to be welded. These barrels are open topped so it is not possible to purge & the barrel with the (5) holes has (3) of the hole locations within 3" of each other. I just ordered some Solar B flux as that was the preferred application since purging was not an option. I read about 200 posts here with SS welding & couldn't get an answer pertaining to the Solar B flux indicating it should be removed after welding, the residual effects of it longterm, & what effect it has on an application with beer or any other consummable. The customer stated the barrels were 304....I don't know. His couplers are 304. I have 308L, 308LSi, 309L, & 309LSi wire & 98/2(AR/CO2) that appears to be adequate according to ED Craigs' Website. The barrel walls are .056 & the coupler wall is .150 incl. thd..

(A) I am presuming that the Solar B has to be applied to both the wall & coupler.... is 1/8" on each intersecting part of the joint sufficient?

(B) My inclination is towards 308LSi..... any challenges? If so...why? Your preference?

(C) Should the flux be removed after welding for this application? What would leaving it result in? What are easy removal techniques?

Oh, BTW, the customer wanted to keep costs to a minimum & I indicated MIG would be less than TIG. He agreed with MIG to keep costs down as much as possible. Since I've never done barrels like this before, I always do my homework just in case I may encounter any issue that may be prevelant with this type of weld. I think I've provided all relevent data.

Never too old to learn.....    Thanks guys.....

Denny
Attachment: barrel1.jpg (0B)
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-08-2010 04:06
Hey Denny!

I hate the idea of Solar Flux for a food grade application.  The stuff works for a single pass only, and in my opinion as a last resort when purge is impossible by any means.

Maybe you could reconsider constructing a temporary seal/cap for the top of the barrels and doing the purge?

.056 is also pretty thin walled for spray transfer mig... GMAWP might minimize backside melt-thru if you decide against GTAW.

Solar flux is nasty to remove...  Do some trials before you proceed, so you know what your up against.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-08-2010 14:16
Denny,

Is the finished usage of the barrels going to remain as 'food grade' for liquids of any kind?  Or are these for the look and going to be used for something different?

It could make a very big difference in how you would want to proceed.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By yorkiepap (***) Date 03-08-2010 18:24
Hey Brent,
Yeah, the fellow is going to make beer from his indication. I guess making your own beer is the latest craze as he indicated he will probably have several more fellows also want to have fittings installed. After all the research I've done since yesterday, I am now seriously contemplating silver-solder. It is easy to do, works quite well on SS, & not detrimental to anything consummable. I started to make a simple fixture to hold the couplers in place for a sil-sol process. I'm still waiting to get substantial information regarding the Solar B & any serious detriments....gonna do some MSDS research.

Denny
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-08-2010 18:35
I like the silver solder idea.

Is it a matter of just running a fillet weld around the outside of the coupling...if MIG'd
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-08-2010 18:48
I think I would revert back to GTAW even with a little more time into them.  That small of fittings, I'll almost bet there wouldn't be much difference in the time.  Especially with how thin the barrels are.

After that the siver-solder sounds like it is worth checking out.

Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By SWP (**) Date 03-08-2010 20:26
Yorki,
I have TIG welded several SS nipples into kegs for brew kettles.  TIG is definitely the way to go.  The way I did it was to machine a small step in the cut off end of the nipple which could be snug fit into the hole in the keg wall.  The step was about 0.050" thick and protruded beyound flush inside the keg by about 0.030".  This produced a nice tight fitting joint with extra material to act as filler for an autogenous weld from the inside.  By welding the inside, clean smooth sanitary weld is made.  I did not shield outside, so in a couple of minor spots of full penetration there was minor sugaring which was not an issue for me, but if you want full penetration to the outside, then build a small purge dam of aluminum foil or use the solar flux on the outside.

With a 10" diameter hole in the top of the keg, I was able to reach inside to the bottom of the keg and make the fusion weld.  Its a long reach and difficult to see, but you can prop up a 4 x 5 lens down near the weld if that's easier than wearing a hood.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-08-2010 21:07
Best idea yet!
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-09-2010 06:41
Hi Denny!

Interesting project indeed!

SWP idea's read like the right way to go and I would do the same for the larger sized couplers as well, then you can come out and just seal weld the seams either autogenously or with filler at a very low current to prevent excessive penetration which more than likely become "Sugared" which means that it will be exposed to the atmosphere, become contaminated, and even with pickling & passivation after the welds are completed, still become a potential localized corrosion site in the vessel...

I have just a couple of questions regarding the use of these kegs...

(1) First off, since it's going to be a food grade item for dispensing home brewed beer, then will the inside walls of the kegs be pickled and passivated before you start welding or will they perform this operation after the 3 couplers and 2 larger couplers on both the tops and bottoms of each keg are welded together? I ask this because it seems to me that it would be more efficient to perform this operation only once and after the welding of the couplers has been completed, and it is something that should be performed on this type of food grade application in order to prevent any corrosion forming due to the formation of chromium depleted areas adjacent to the welds exposed to the brew and starting a localized corrosion cell 

(2) After welding, how will any and all of the relatively thin "heat tint" which is a thin layer of chromium depletion which can start forming a corrosion area from welding found inside the keg be removed? This is why I asked the first question. ;)

(3) Are you going to be using tools all the way down to GTAW parts to the type of wire brush, carbide grinding tip, etc., dedicated for use on Stainless steel only? I would in order to prevent possible carbon contamination on to the Stainless steel even though and I'm presuming here, that the vessel will be pickled and passivated after the welding operations have been completed. ;)

(3) have you ever come across the term called "MIC" which stands for Micro-biologically Induced Corrosion? I ask this because if you are going to leave any type of seam that's not at the very least seal welded, then that's exactly where this can actually start to occur. So it's important not to leave any unsealed seams inside the vessel where this can potentially occur. :( Another scenario that can happen in an unsealed seam inside of the keg... Bacteria can grow and live within the seam and potentially contaminate the beer which will be a huge headache for the owner of the kegs to say the least!!! :( :( :( 

I was going to write about the different options that came to my head when initially thought these kegs were going to be used for something else than what I have concluded what the customer is indeed intending to use these three kegs for... So forget about everything I wrote below and scroll down to the last paragraph even though I'll leave them in the post for future uses on other types of stainless steel projects...

That's why the dimensions SWP gave you are just enough so that you can seal weld from the inside until the very last joint in each keg.. This is where you will need to work on some sample welds which will ensure that you will achieve ample penetration from the outside of the keg and not leave an unsealed seam inside of the keg... Now, you can prevent sugaring on the last weld inside from occurring by either using a water soluable purge dam which will require a substantially less amount of argon to purge the smaller volume within the water soluable dam and the larger coupling, or get the customer to agree on spending the price of a "K" or possibly a "T" sized cylinder of Argon to purge the entire keg...

Figure total cubic feet inside each keg, then ask your gas supplier how many cubic feet of argon is in the different size pressurized cylinders they supply you with in order to find out whether one is enough to displace the inside volume of the keg at least 4 times in order to ensure there's no residual air in the vessel. If you need to use a dewars of liquid argon instead, then tack it on to the price also, and if they don't go for it, then inform them all of the potential hazards involved and compare that with the cost of doing the job right with what the cost of having it done haphazardly and ending up being sued for not using best industry practices, or GMP when someone gets sick from the beer!!!

Or, you could use a plastic bag as a temporary purging dam, so that only a fraction of the volume of argon is necessary in order to purge the inside close enough to the last joint that is to be welded where the center of the bag is tied really secure to a cord which is used to pull the bag out once the final weld is completed... You could also use this method on all of the couplings to be welded and therefore perform all of the welding from the outside instead! ;) Now the tape holding the bag would also be of the type which could come out of the inside relatively easy... If there was a possibility for you to find 1 inflatable bladder (turkey cooking bag?) which could be used to create a temporary dam along with 1 or 2 cardboard cut-outs of roughly the same inside circumference of the keg, and use them first to create a temporary purging dam for both one of the larger couplings on the end either closest to the 3 couplings, then using the other

Now, your customer may just be a tight wad, but if they are going to be selling the beer whether it be in a pub themselves or otherwise, then they need to know that there are potential liability issues which may even draw you into the fray - so to speak... First off, if anyone gets sick from drinking the beer and decides to sue these folks and they get a lawyer that specializes in these sort of cases, they will be coming to you and asking why you didn't weld it this way instead of just slapping on the couplers and welding them any which way not giving a hoot about the potential contamination and corrosion issues by doing it the cheapest way possible, then they can include you in the suit and poof! there goes your reputation and your business! :(

Unless you make them sign a waiver, and it's notarized stating that you informed your customer that this vessel must not be used for sanitary applications such as the dispensing of beverages because of the method & process of welding which is not the industry standard, and lack of proper post weld surface treatment which is also an industry standard in food grade applications. Further stating that you are not responsible, or liable for any potential food poisoning cases that may arise as a result of the customer, and owner of the kegs in question for not ensuring that the kegs are properly prepared for use in a food grade application whereby effective and proven sanitary welding techniques, and post weld surface cleaning was indeed performed on these 3 kegs.

If the customer agrees to this and still wants you to weld the copulings using the GMAW process and not concern themselves with ensuring that all sanitary considerations are met afterwards, then insist on having them sign the waiver and if they do not want to? then tell them that you will not put yourself in a potential situation where you may or may not be liable without any sort of written waiver protecting you from any potential liability whatsoever!!! It's that simple Denny! ;) In fact, I would have them sign a waiver anyway!!! Why? Because you really cannot trust that the customer will follow up on pickling and passivating the inside of the keg vessel either... So they may tell you that they will do this, but unless you farm it out and have it done, and tag on the cost of post weld surface cleaning on to the final bill, they could tell you whatever it is they want you to hear and after you completed the welding without making usre that the kegs have been pickled and passivated they  have then effectively put you on the spot for a potential law suit! So CYA brother!!! :) :) :) :)

Finally, an epiphany hit me and rendered everything I previously wrote regarding how one would go about purging to prevent contamination of the backside of the welds, totally useless and irrelevant to your specific application!!!  So I have to ask you this question for clarification... When you wrote this: "These barrels are open topped" did you mean that they will remain open topped after all of the couplings are welded on to the kegs??? Because if this is the case, then it makes purging a heck of a lot easier than I previously wrote above as well as using significantly less argon to complete!!!

Now after writing all of this... Is your customer attempting to put together one of these?

http://www.brew-magic.com/bmindex.html

Respectfully,
Henry
- - By rodofgod (**) Date 03-08-2010 22:52
Hi All!

Solar Flux is not really an option when dealing with food grade materials! The 'glass like' very hard to remove slag and the fact that it should be mixed with methanol sort of rule it out!

I would look to another method of purging. I can guarantee there will be other options other than solar flux!

Regards
Parent - - By yorkiepap (***) Date 03-08-2010 23:34
Hey guys,
I've decided not to go the Solar B route since there is a definite question regarding use in consummable applications.

Today, I started to engage some brain matter, after removing some dust, & came up with a jig that would seal the inside seam & my thoughts are that the gas flow from the MIG will provide adequate shielding to run a single bead around it.

Pic 2: jig parts- cup washer with 4" 3/8" bolt silver soldered to it. A cutoff piece of electrical conduit .650 long to have the coupler centered as per customer instructions. The outside bracket to apply apply tightening force to maintain a good seal.

Pic 3: The cup washer silver soldered to the bolt.

Pic 4: The conduit cutoff resting inside the cup washer.

Pic 5: The coupler inside the conduit.

Pic 6: The assembly in place on the barrel.

Ok...my thoughts are to place another washer on the outside top of the coupler. Then MIG weld with 20cfh to allow the shielding gas to disperse any air in the coupler thru the top washer opening. Since the bottom is sealed & the very slight hairline crack between the keg & coupler, I could provide the necessary procedure to eliminate sugaring. This fellow is trying to keep the expense down a bit & in addition, he accepted MIG as a more economic route. In addition, with TIG, there is no way I can get down under the (3) couplers in the inside of the one barrel. I can see where these types of jobs can evolve into some serious expense. I find this an interesting project as I do with any new application I have never done.

(A) Do you feel there is any merit with this approach?

(B) If I run a small 1/4" bead.... would sugaring appear quickly, or does it take a long span of time?

If the general consensus is it will not work, I will use the fixture to sil-sol. That way I know I'll be safe. Additionally, I will, at least, be able to do any future jobs like this one since I have the jig to do them easily.

Thanks guys....

Denny
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Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-09-2010 03:54
Your fixturing looks good for a carefully done welding operation, but I think You risk soldering the internal fixture parts to the barrel & sleeve if You use silver solder.

I like SWP's method with the autogenous  weld on the inside, provided You can reach it. This would be as fast as MIG without the inherent problems of spray transfer on thin material, or dip transfer with the wrong gas.
- - By jd369 (**) Date 03-09-2010 13:03 Edited 03-09-2010 13:18
I do mine a little different then SWP as I do not have access to a lathe for turning the couplings. I use a hole saw and cut through the outer wall of the keg, but I cut the hole at least 1/8" smaller in diameter then that of the ID of the coupling. Once the coupling is centered on this hole I now have a 1/16" lip all around to use as an intergral weld lip. I can then tig weld it from the outside and seal all around the inside, please see the sketch, I can do this down to a 3/4 coupling. After that it becomes increasingly more difficult to reach the tungsten inside through the coupling to weld. The picture attached is of welding a length of pipe on using the same method, just that the torch is shoved all the way in the pipe. For the couplings just extending the tungsten with a good gas lens works very well.
  Next I purge the keg and perform a fillet weld around the outside. The purge is encase I burn through while welding it will remain clean inside. I like to have the fillet weld on the outside for the added strength. You can easily purge your open top keg with a carefully cut piece of cardboard taped all around.
Regards
Jim
Attachment: KegDrainwithcoup.bmp (900k)
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Attachment: KegCouplingwelding1.JPG (99k)
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-09-2010 18:39
I use the same method for welding couplings on to SS tubing or piping where CJP is not mandatory, and it is indeed the better way to go... Since it is going to be an open top type keg vessel probably for use in brewing beer, then as jd369 mentioned, using cardboard cutouts with masking tape to seal a much smaller volume of the keg inside for purging to cover all three hole locations is the way to go IMHO! ;) It will be a whole lot cheaper than you think Denny! ;)

So don't take a chance with MIG/GMAW on this project Denny! Even though it might be thought of as being cheaper to use, it still will not protect the inside from sugaring without any sort of purging to prevent any atmospheric contamination which will result in sugaring regardless of the jig you will use...

I don't know why you just can't get a couple of sample joints together, and weld them together with the the couplers in the jig you came up with, and see for yourself if it will do what you intend it to do??? Hey, if it works then you can proceed, but if it doesn't then all you need to do is to show the customer why MIG/GMAW will not work to prevent any sugaring from welding. ;) So ,there's my 2 cents worth, and I hope it works out for you whichever way you decide to go! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Solar B Flux......

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