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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.5 PQR question/reassurance
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-11-2010 12:17
I'm getting geared up to do several PQRs and hoped that you guys see this the same way that I do.....

Going to use a standard FCAW wire for the PQR on A588 Gr50/A709 Gr50 (because I don't have any color matching wire in house at the moment).

If I qualify using the standard wire, I'm thinking that the color matching wire isn't an essential variable that would require a new PQR, as long as I stay with the same mfg, AWS class/spec....ect.

Question or two to you guys who are familiar with D1.5, am I missing anything with this line of thought? Without any experience with the color matching wires, do they run with the same electrical variables as the regular wire(at least within the limits of Table 5.3)?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-11-2010 14:23
Another D1.5 newbie question.....all of the D1.5 PQRs that I've done previously had State Inspectors to witness the testing and also followed the material to the lab to witness the machining, ect.....

Do I need a State Inspector/Rep present when performing these PQRs?

I don't have any D1.5 jobs in-house yet(so I don't have any job specs or any contract drawings to go by), this is just to get a few PQRs and WPSs in place for an AISC audit so the auditor has something to look at. He said that he couldn't schedule an audit until we did this first...so here I am trying to pull info out of the air and not waste money testing on something that may never get used.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-11-2010 14:46
John
As far as the color matching issue, I have never dealt with it.

The PQR w/ state inspector issue I have.  I asked around to my local state DOT's and they all recommended that I have a state represtative here in place during the PQR tests so that IF we needed to do a D1.5 project, that I could prove that I had a state representaive present during the PQR test and they in turn would agree/ sign off on the PQR'.s
I got the impression that it wasn't mandatory to have them their, but a state may not buy off on the PQR's becasue there wasn't someone there to confirm that what's on the PQR/WPS's is really what you did.  So again they suggested it was a good idea to have them there.
Now up here it wasn't an actual state DOT person, it was an individual from a recognized approved DOT inspection company (Pennoni) who's a local guy who was here for two seperate days, one day FCAW one day SAW.  He was a good guy, helped me out somewhat since that was my first time around doing a bridge PQR plate.
I asked all the surrounding states DOT's if they would recognize/ approve a Pennoni inspector and they all said yes, that's how I ended up with them.
Chris
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-11-2010 15:02
Thanks for the reply Chris. I'm planning on ordering some plate today and try to get started so I'll be ready whenever I get around to welding the actual PQR. I will need to get started on the SAW stuff too at some point.

Looks like I need to call Richmond and see what they recommend about having a State Inspector/Rep here to witness everything.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-11-2010 16:03
I am not sure how helpful this is, but some DOTs require a WPS and supporting PQR for each project. I've had situations were there were two bridges for the same state being fabricated at the same time. Each bridge used the same material and each had separate WPSs supported by qualified PQRS and qualified welders for each (specific) projects. Even the welding electrodes were stored in separate electrode holding ovens that were project specific.

My advice, don't spend a lot of time and money qualifying WPSs that will not be permitted to be used. Even if you have a qualified WPS (even though it has been recently qualified), its use may not be permitted for a new project depending on which state DOT you are contending with.

You have to read your contracts very closely to see what exceptions/additions have been taken or added from/to the basic requirements of D1.5.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 03-11-2010 17:58
I normally hire a CWI from one of the available agencies if the work is not specifically for a State DOT.  Never had a problem with that just make sure you get their CWI number. 
At PQR submittal time, you should have your hand written PQR weld map along with MTRs on test and backing plates (don't forget to calculate your CE%), lab results, RT results, manuf certificate on the electrode, dew point analysis on your gas.  Your PQR form needs to be signed off by the witnessing CWI.

Some scoff at the hand written PQR map but we have one client that requires it.  So I try to appease the most stringent application in case I need to use that PQR with them.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 03-11-2010 17:49
Not sure I'm fully grasping the questions.

Color matching wire is only required when specified by contract.  Single pass grooves and single pass fillets up to 5/16" with non-weathering electrode can be run in a weathering application with no problem.  It is assumed there is enough alloy pick-up to give the welds weathering properties.  I think you will find that in the Commentary - not positive though.  I can look later.

So your logic is sound on using A588 in the PQR allows welding on the lesser grades (D1.5).  Most of your welds are going to be single pass fillets - you may be just fine with only that.
If you have a multipass weathering application, you could submit a procedure to weld out with non-weathering electrode and make your final passes withg weathering electrode.  (E8018-C3[pre-qualified SMAW] on top of E71T-1 for example)

You are not correct in your second assumption.  If you look at D1.5 Table 5.1 you will see the manufacturer's brand that you test is also an essential variable.  You can't simply switch to another E71T-1 - for example if you test Lincoln Outershield 71M you gotta weld with Lincoln Outershield 71M (plus the other essential variables apply).  But your FCAW weathering electrode will not be the same classification anyway.  You would need a different PQR to cover the change.

The color matching wires we have used don't run dramatically differently than non-weathering.  But we also don't use weathering electrode very much.  In the past 10 years I can think of 2 jobs that had weathering requirements, and those were not very large.

You will find though, that the PQR's are not difficult to do once you get a few under your belt.  Often you can mount a FCAW gun on a Bug-o to keep travel speed consistent - just be sure your customer is OK with that.  Most are but some aren't.  D1.5 does not proihibit that.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-11-2010 18:11
Thanks guys...all great tips and points that are well taken.

I've done a few(able to count on my fingers few) PQRs but they were for other companies and they set up the witnessing and and lab work. Starting out without any project requirements has been my biggest hangup trying to figure what to test and what will give us the biggest bang for the buck.

I was aware of the single pass dilution on the color matching problem, but the 1" groove testing wouldn't let me get away with that. I figured the 2G 1" groove PQR test gives me the fillet weld WPS qualification as a bonus and I can get one of the welder quals out of the way at the same time(provided the PQR passes).

I'm still reading and takling notes at the moment.....thanks again for the great replies so far.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 03-12-2010 11:32
John, to add to this situation.  The color matching dilemma was one reason I didn't use weathering steel to do my original PQR's for my initial AISC Bridge audit becasue of all the extra issues and concerns.  It was all so new to me that I was overwhelmed at that time so I went with the regular A709-50 plate.  I figured that if/ when needed I'd have to do a weathering PQR later.  Ironically we are bidding a project now but I don't have the materials section yet so I don't know if its weathering or not, but I may be with you here in a week or so.  I'll keep you updated and follow along for practise once I get through updating my manual that Ive got in process.
Chris
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 03-12-2010 18:21
John,
You're headed the right way.  I would not PQR test with steels above 50ksi yield unless you have a specific need for it.  And the advantage of testing with 50W is that it will qualify welding of grades 36, 50, and 50W.

Not sure if this will cloud the question - let me know if it does - if you are doing single pass PRODUCTION welds on weathering steel, you don't need a PQR with weathering wire.  You do need a PQR on the weathering steel with the wire you will run in production, and the 50W covers you on that.

Note that D1.5 - 5.8.2 says that flat position (1G) test welds will also qualify horizontal (2G) welding.  As far as fillets go, you will still have to do a fillet weld soundness test for your production welding positions.  You need 1F for flat fillets and 2F for horizontal.
The 1G plate supports both the 1F and 2F FWSTs. 
You might not do any 1F welds in your shop; if so all you need is the 1G PQR plate and 2F FWST.  This will be the minimum you need to do for the AISC audit.

As far as welder qualifications for fracture critical certification,  keep in mind that all you are required to have is one FC qualified welder for each process that you plan to use on the mock-up.  Since welders need to qualify within 6 months before beginning production FC welding (12.8.2), or need to qualify annually, it is perfectly OK if you don't qualify any but those you need for the mock-up.  You can test additional welders when the need arises.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-12-2010 18:42
Chet,
Thanks again for a small slice of your experience and knowledge. I have leaned on you for many years now. I hope that I can help you in the same way sometime.

As for cloudy questions...no, that makes perfect sense and a PQR on A588/A709 gr50 with regular E71T-1 was my plan for now....will cross the weathering, multipass PQR with the weathering wire when and if the need arises.

As for the FC work....our people here have elected to leave D1.5 Section 12 right where it is for now...LOL I think I scared them away by showing them all of the requirements that I understood so far with my limited comprehension of that Section of the code.
The work they will be looking at is from an engineering firm who wants to partner with us and take on some design build type of pedestrian bridges for hospitals and colleges, with a few parks and recreation (hiking/biking) bridges thrown into the mix. Nothing on the menu yet for automobile traffic or major bridge construction.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-12-2010 19:09
Chet, the part where you stated that I cut and copied below:

Note that D1.5 - 5.8.2 says that flat position (1G) test welds will also qualify horizontal (2G) welding.  As far as fillets go, you will still have to do a fillet weld soundness test for your production welding positions.  You need 1F for flat fillets and 2F for horizontal.
The 1G plate supports both the 1F and 2F FWSTs. 
You might not do any 1F welds in your shop; if so all you need is the 1G PQR plate and 2F FWST.  This will be the minimum you need to do for the AISC audit.

I don't have the code with me to look it up but the 1G PQR and then WPS can't be used for a fillet WPS?  He still has to do the fillet weld soundness test?  That seems redundant, if it'll work on a PQR plate that gets all those tensile, and bends, those settings and variables should be fine for a fillet weld.
Curious I'll have to look this up, I never noticed this before
Chris
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 03-12-2010 22:47 Edited 03-13-2010 03:33
Actually, to qualify fillets you need to do both - a groove PQR test and a fillet weld soundness test.  The groove is used to obtain specimens that will test the properties of the filler metal and the filler/base metal combined.  The fillet weld soundness test does just what the name says - tests that you can make a sound fillet weld with those parameters.

As a matter of fact, I always run some practice FWSTs first to set the parameters needed to run fillets, and then use those for the groove test.  Reason is that the FWST is to be run at the mean amps and volts (see D1.5-5.10.2.2).  Grooves can be run over a wide range of parameters but not so with fillets; that is, you have to penetrate to the root (but not necessarily beyond) and some wire sizes, and parameter ranges don't quite make it.  It's a common problem and the test is not quite as redundant as it seems.

The confusion over this possibly comes from D1.5 - 5.10.2 which says "..... A separate fillet weld property test shall not be required unless specified in the contract documents."  This means that a groove PQR test can determine properties for both grooves and fillets; no need for 2 groove tests UNO (and as long as you can make a fillet within the range of parameters the groove qualifies)

But dropping down to 5.10.2.1 you can see that fillet weld properties are determined by groove welds. (then the same sentence from 5.10.2 is repeated).
Then 5.10.2.2 is the clincher.  "All fillet WPSs shall be subject to fillet weld soundness macroetch qualification ......."

So as I said, the minimum is a 1G and 2F test.  But the FWST is easy enough to do in your shop; if you have macroetch chemicals you won't need to send them out to a lab.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 03-15-2010 10:35
Thanks for the explanation, I see where you are coming from.

Yes I can do marco etch here,I do it all the time so that's not a problem.

Thanks again
Chris
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-22-2010 14:18
"Actually, to qualify fillets you need to do both - a groove PQR test and a fillet weld soundness test.  The groove is used to obtain specimens that will test the properties of the filler metal and the filler/base metal combined.  The fillet weld soundness test does just what the name says - tests that you can make a sound fillet weld with those parameters.
"-quote Chet

I agree, I read that and understood it to say and mean the same way you did.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 03-15-2010 18:36
" if you are doing single pass PRODUCTION welds on weathering steel, you don't need a PQR with weathering wire.  You do need a PQR on the weathering steel with the wire you will run in production, and the 50W covers you on that."

I fear that may indeed cloud the question.

You don't need a PQR with weathering wire *if you are not going to use weathering wire in production*.

Hg
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-29-2010 11:44
We may change filler wire manufacturers (from Lincoln to Esab).  In preperation for this potential change, I know I would need to re qualify my PQR's for FCAW.
If so, I want to include weathering steel in this go around.  Please confirm I am understanding this correctly.

If I qualify with ASTM A709-50W to ASTM A709-50W, I can weld 36, and 50 also with the same PQR/WPS combination?

This is froom 5.4.1 Base Metal Qualification Requirements

Thanks Chris
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 03-29-2010 14:18
Per the third line in the table in 5.4.1, yes, you can.  Notice that they've added the 80-ksi weathering electrodes to Gr. 36 in Table 4.1 for pretty much this reason.

Hg
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-29-2010 17:57
Thank you HG for confirming that, that's where I got in in the third section down in 5.4.1.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 07-30-2010 12:16
Do I have to re-certify all my welders to the new filler wire?

I'll have the new PQR per D1.5. but will only that guy be certified to run with my new wire?

I see in D1.1 I can change wire as long as it meets the pre-qualified requirements, and in Table 4.12 it's not an essential variable.

But I don't see the same type of chart in D1.5.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-30-2010 13:33
I would have to ask the question, "What code did the welders qualify to originally?"

And then I would have to go to the applicable code, D1.1 or D1.5 to see what they require.

Al
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 07-30-2010 16:23
Assuming we are still talking D1.5 here:
As long as it is the same process, changing the brand of wire will not require you to retest your welders.  Brand and tradename is an essential variable for the PQR but not the WQTR.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 07-30-2010 18:18
Chguilford,
Your getting at what my question is.
They were tested to D1.5 with FCAW Lincoln wire.   I am changing from Lincoln to Hobart, I know my WPS has to be requalified, but I didn;t see if I had to re-do my welders.
So you think D1.5 allows me to change wire's and my already D1.5 FCAW qualifed welders will be ok to weld with the new wire as long as they use the new WPS's?
I coulnd't find anything in D1.5 that said I coulnd't but I thought maybe I was missing it.
Chris
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 07-31-2010 01:45
You're good. 
I'm home now and only have a 2002 D1.5 but look at 5.24.1.3.    "A welder, welding operator, or tack welder qualified
with an approved electrode and shielding medium combination shall be considered qualified to weld or tackweld with any other approved electrode and shielding medium combination for the process used in the qualification test."

Read "for the process used..." as a separate phrase.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 08-02-2010 10:32
Thanks,
I see the commentary section says it clearer.
C5.24.1.3 " Although a change in manufacturer within a given classification of filler metal, change of flux, or changes of shielding gas is an essential iten for WPS qualification, these are NOT factors in welding personnel qualification."
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 08-03-2010 01:37
Yeah that too ;)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-03-2010 01:58
Chris,
Chet was always the one to point me to the Commentary for clarification when I had questions. Good job looking back there in the back of the book....LOL
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 08-03-2010 10:15
thanks guys.
My problem is I look into this stuff, forget that I did it 6 months later, and then freak myself out and "get holy sh!t did I look that up", casue I can't always remember that I did it, and then I'm not sure I read it right.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 08-03-2010 16:15
A colleague, who is much wiser than I'll ever be, once taught me "Never quote the code unless you are holding it in your hands." 

Now if only I could remember to implement all the good advice I have been given...........
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-03-2010 17:21
Sounds like sage advice Chet....<files away for future reference>
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 08-03-2010 17:34
Chet, I like that phrase, that's good.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.5 PQR question/reassurance

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