Lazy CWIs ruining my day

Date 03-23-2010 03:18

I am a QC doing structural steel with continuous inspection by CWIs. A few of them seem to think they are doing me a favor by being lazy and not inspecting our work. A typical trick is to take my cut list with heat numbers written in and write their reports from it without looking at the work. Then they run through the shop and sign everything they see that has their job number on it. The really slick ones don't even sign they just spray paint a dot of color on it. Material ID is just "Give me some MTRs and make sure you write the heat numbers on the right kind of stuff. I can see your shop is up to par."
As much as I appreciate being able to take a few liberties, I would much rather they were strict as heck and made us toe the line. I want to put out a quality product.

Now, the part that really irks me. A couple of them have told my welders to cheat by covering up things that they might not see since they are not looking. They've been told to weld around the ends of plates to hide gaps, to fill in the ends of slots to hide poorly burned radius and who knows what else. I don't need the kind of crap this can lead to.
Please advise on how I can be politically correct and not stir up trouble while fixing this problem.

By eekpod

Date 03-23-2010 10:25

you could ask them straight out, "why are to telling my peoeple to cut corners?" and see what they say. That's what I would do, but I'm a CWI so I know how to talk to fellow inspectors.
These guys are taking a risk with this behavior and I know how you feel. As much as I hate having someone look over my shoulder, it does keep the shop personnel honest because everyone knows they are there and why. I always tell any TPI that I consider them here to catch anything that we didn't, so I expect them to do their job, and to please report any issues to me so that I can get it addressed. What these guys are doing is hurting you, not helping. Especially if something did get missed, then they'll be the first to throw you under the bus when someone else finds it, and where were they? Good luck

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-23-2010 11:52

I'd have a little heart to heart chat with these guys just out of ear shot of the rest of the shop.

I've had guys breeze through here too, and I want our guys to understand that what I preach to them about quality is for real and outside inspectors expect to see quality work.....when guys breeze through without looking at anything, it underminds our sense of quality and what is important for us to produce a quality product. I'm with you when you say that you want the inspector to make you tow the line and expect for your guys to do things correctly.

I have also outside inspectors hold us to their idea of how to do things rather than by the applicable codes or standards that we work to which is a different problem altogether.

Seriously, have that chat and tell them not to gloss things over, and to get in there and use that extra set of "outside" eyes to help you discover any weaknesses in your program.

BTW, I'm a CWI as well and don't like the idea that other CWIs are making the rest of us CWIs look lazy or shady.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 03-23-2010 16:39

Interesting complaint you have there.
I agree that the third party inspectors (TPI) should get out there and do the job - to a point (and I'll explain that).

We have no problem at all with the knowledgeable and sincere TPI's that show up at our shop. They know not to get excited about things they don't YET understand, they check their infomation, they don't waffle on a call (having checked their facts first), and they own up to mistakes. They have a team attitude.

Then we have inspectors who "know everything", "know that we don't know anything", and want to instuct everyone on how to do their jobs. The crew tries to keep Mr. or Ms. Inspector happy - often unbeknownst to shop management. Those TPI's are quick with opinions but slow on solutions, and like lightning with "I told them so" to anyone who will liten. Unfortunately, those TPI's will never assume responsibility for anything they do or say.

Then another type of TPI sits in the office surfing the net, walks out on th floor maybe 2X a day, and wants copys of all the QC reports on Fridays (That's when thay write their reports to whomever they work for and need our info to do that)

If I can't have the 1st type of inspector, then I'd rather have the 3rd typ - at least they don't do us any damage.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-25-2010 15:38

Being a CWI does not make one a better inspector. It just makes them a CWI. No more than passing a test in a booth makes me a good welder. The ethics involved with inspecting something in accordance with a code or other written requirements agreed upon can be a burden sometime. I suggest you document what you see, what others say, and how you respond. Record who, what where and when.

If these people are contracted from a local lab, ask the lab for the inspection procedures. If the inspection is to be in accordance with your procedures or a project specific procedure, make sure the inspectors have them. A clearly defined scope of what is to be inspected (material, fitup, roots, after sandblast etc) can be helpful to possibly green inspectors that may think becoming a CWI has made them an engineer or grand poohbah of welding decisions.

I am experienced in situations in which a subcontracted inspector was not performing to the standards of the fabricator/manufacturer. All I can advise is do what is specified in the documents that are represented by your signature. No more, no less. Make sure opinions are stated as that but avoid them if possible. Just because someone is writing the check they do not jave hurisdiction over your decisions unless you want them to.

I am now essentially an unemployed CWI in an area with 4 companies in steel manufacturing or fabrication. One of which I was working 60 hours a week for until a Monday following a Thursday discussion with the supervisor regarding checking preheat temp. He stated he was not going to preheat even if the base metal was 20 degrees. I told him I could not be present and that that was a violation of the code. I left as it was a night shift and no decision makers were there. Came home, sent an email to the QC Manager. Didn't receive a response. Went in the next day and nobody would talk about the issue. Worked that night and next night and preheat temps were not an issue. Off Sunday, came in on the following Monday and told I wasn't needed any longer for inspection. The QC manager was against my being let go but was overruled. So there is an example of how to handle inspectors that are not doing what you like. No exactly like your situation but close.

Gerald Austin
www.weldingdata.com

By AceMet

Date 03-23-2010 18:17

More than lazy CWIs is the issue. If your account is true then these people absolutely need to loose their CWI certifications. The AWS spends a lot of time and money to manage and promote the CWI program. People send more time and money to become CWIs. The industry, and people who use the welded facilities trust that the work is sound. AWS, Miami, has a good method for handling people who falsify their CWI certifications, act in an unethical manner and very much to remove people who direct welders to hide unacceptable work. This could get ugly for you also as you have knowledge of unacceptable welding being hidden. If the contract has federal money the FBI could be involved. No kidding. Loose the heart-to-heart talks, beers and trying to be a nice guy.

If a CWI makes a mistake in using the code or if he misses something in inspection that is one thing that some training can address, don't report that to the ethics committee. Falsifying and hiding poor welding and directing the crafts to cover up unacceptable, non code complaint work mandates that those guilty people loose their CWI's - forever.

By rfieldbuilds (**)

Date 03-25-2010 03:04

HE$% Yeah! Who are these people? A lot of TPI firms like inspectors that don't stir up a lot of trouble. Most PM's are paid to keep costs low and these types of issues (NCR and going "by the book") usually cost our clients more money in the end. I've worked for one that hated me for writing a NCR. AND, sent out guys he knew would rubber stamp the questionable issues. Nothing PI**ES me off more than losing work to a 'pencil whipper' who will accept quality below industry standard. If the job calls for D1.8, it is D1.8, If it is FEMA 353, It is FEMA 353.
I have learned through good and bad times that operating as a team is in my best interest. I approach every job with a 'get-r-done' attitude. Those folks who are afraid to call an engineer and get clarification, afriad to write an NCR, or gloss over things to get on the good side of the fab/erection crews hurt us all. Those folks who do this work in the shops and field and ask inspectors to look the other way give me a lot of job security. HA HA HA. In the end, the joke is on them.
As for the TPI guys you speak of, they won't last, their firms won't last. They can have their crappy jobs. For those of us that respect and demand quality, our satisfaction comes at the end of the day when our head hits the pillow.
I know when my firm is hired, it is because our clientel respects our work and wants a cut above the rest.

By jrw159

Date 03-25-2010 11:46

Damn, I need to go to work for you then. All to often I run across the ones that want a "Yes Man" and if you do your job correctly you are considered as "Rocking the Boat".

For example: "I am sorry but your welders are only certified to weld grooves in the flat position and fillets in the flat and horizontal positions. All these groove welds that were done in the horizontal and vertical position as well as the fillets done in the vertical and overhead position are rejectable." No matter how nice you are about it or how much you are on board with moving the product, you have just become the biggest piece of sh*t on site, and with several companies I have dealt with in the past, you will not be there much longer.

Way too many companies that only want the card, stamp and signature but NOT the actual inspection. Don't and say we did.

These inspectors should be strung up by the nut's, however, sadly enough, there are many companies that specifically search for just these type of inspectors.

I am the type of inspector that wants to do everything within my abilities to help "git-er-done" but I will not turn a blind eye to things that are not code compliant. If someone wants a "yes man" to pencil whip a project through, I am NOT that man so keep on looking.

jrw159

By 803056

Date 03-26-2010 04:32

Who is responsible for QC? The contractor, i.e., the fabricator.
Who is responsible to inspect each and every weld per AWS D1.1? Per clause 6.6.1, the contractor's inspector. That would be the fabricator.

Depending on the contract language the TPI may be performing or acting in the capacity of quality assurance. As such, it is the TPI's, acting as the verification inspector, responsibility to verify the required inspections and tests are being performed by the contractor's inspector. Collecting the fabricator's inspection/test reports and performing spot verification inspections to ensure the contractor's reports are accurate may be the only inspections by the TPI that are required. Another means of ensuring the reports are accurate is to "tag along" with the contractor's inspector to witness the visual inspections and to witness any additional NDT.

Acting as a TPI, I do not take on the contractor's quality control obligations that include performing the testing (including VT) required by the applicable code.

As a TPI, unless directed to do so by contract (and purchase order), I do not perform NDT such as MT, PT, UT or VT if it is required by the applicable code to be performed by the contractor. Those functions are usually, but not always, considered quality control functions, thus the responsibility of the contractor (fabricator).

There are times when I am hired to perform NDT on behalf of the contractor because they do not have the capability, but in those circumstances I am paid by the fabricator and in no way represent the owner. If the owner/Engineer is paying me for my services on a project, I do not collect compensation from the fabricator (that includes qualifying welders) for work performed on the same project.

I do not condone sitting in the office for the entire day collecting compensation from a client only to rush around on Friday afternoon to justify charging the client for the entire week. That is fraudulent in my opinion.

In my opinion it is unethical to tell a contractor or their employee to do something that is wrong or unethical. To do so would be sufficient basis to ask them to be removed from the facility. As the contractor's qc inspector, I would make it very clear that the TPI's even suggesting such actions to one of my people would bring forth the wrath of fire and hell like he's never experience. Subtlety in the nature of my remarks would not be a hallmark of the conversation.

Best regards - Al

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 03-28-2010 12:03

I agree with Joe Pirie. GET THEIR MONEY! and hire people that will do what you need them to do.

Jim