oxy fuel being done....?

Date 03-31-2010 01:43

I was under the assumption it was an Archaic Art only used by hobbyists.
The last time I was exposed to OFW was in 1985 on a Stouffers TV Dinner plant in Provo Utah (Crepaco was the contractor that hired me). We (I) was welding 3" and smaller refridgeration pipe (sch. 40) with Victor torch. The old hands showed me that it was best to one pass it. It took a couple of days to get the hang of it, especially the tie in. I though it odd, but they all said it was normal to have that much scale!
I don't recall tinted faceshields back then, but I quickly learned to use a clear faceshield with my trusty "Barnstormer" 50 mm goggles after my lips blistered. I have not seen or heard of anyone using this process since then.
Back in the '70's at ARMCO Steel, I was given the dubious honor of repairing a boken cast iron pedestal on a large (and ancient back then) lathe. I don't recall the size blowpipe, but the inner cone of the flame was about the diameter of a pencil. Cracked foot was "V"eed out and using two helpers with rosebuds and Me armed with 1/2" square cast iron filler rods spent the better part of a shift welding a groove about 5" deep and 3 or 4 feet in length. We used plain old 20 Mule Team Borax for flux. And yes, genuine asbestos blankets for personal heat shielding and PWHT wrap. Those were the good old days with out no stinking OSHA or EPA butting in to production.

Wondering if the square cast iron rods are still available????
Weldhawk. Do you teach the Linde Oxweld method where they suggest a slightly carberizing (hotter) flame?

By weldhawk71 (**)

Date 03-31-2010 01:59

No to the carburizing flame, as it raises the carbon content of the weld/material. Not sure where we get/got the cast rod but we do have some and I was taught to use it back in 92. Ur right, long slow process but it does work! Used borax also! Fun stuff!!

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-31-2010 18:31

Superflux

Yea you can still get the old square rods....but you will have to order them.....I have not seen a welding supply keep them in stock in a long time. As far as gas welding goes, yea nobody does it.....but like you were talking about.....if you have a cast iron repair it is simply the best way to do it especially on large thick pieces. If you know how you can charge $$$ for the service cause no one else around will know how.

my $.02
Tommy

By FixaLinc (****)

Date 03-31-2010 03:10

It was used a lot more till quality large & smaller affordable wire welders came along. Repairing farm equipment and livestock feeding equipment we use to braze all kinds of things, thin sheet metal, build up shafts & augers, small repairs, cast iron repairs, repair gears. Still use it now and then for cast iron or running Stoody torch hard face rod. Just like auto body shops & muffler shops use to do it all with a torch before MIG & TIG came along.

By joe pirie (***)

Date 03-31-2010 05:20

The gas company welders out of pico rivera ca that work directly for the gas company not an outside contractor
use the gas weld process for 4" and under carbon steel. I think it's a lost art they don't teach it at the apprenticship
school. I've never done it myself but i've seen it done it's actually very fast

By FixaLinc (****)

Date 04-01-2010 06:52

It is faster than most think and brazing or OA welding kept lots of things running in this country for years just fine. When I got to ag shop in high school already knew how to how weld OA but everyone went through it again and learned more safety too. That's the thing today most never learned the safety aspect of it and why some just go buy a cutting torch and have no idea of what can go wrong if not used safely. Wish I had pics of all the brazing repairs but most was on older equipment that is gone now and outdated. Every farmers combine use to have something brazed on it.

By J Hall

Date 03-31-2010 12:21

I worked in an exhaust shop in the late '70s and everything was welded O/A. It was fun, and you gould get around a pipe pretty fast. And make it look pretty too. If you worried about a pinhole, you just took your torch and pushed a hole in the pipe and held the tip tight and any pinholes would be able to be seen.
I left there before they went to mig.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-31-2010 06:22

Hawk

I don't know anybody within 100 miles of me that gas welds for money.. Only for the love of the game.

I don't have gas welding as part of my program curriculum either.. I often hear the old timers say that Gas welding has such similar motions to GTAW that its a good place to start... Well, I start with my 25 tig welders.

We have the equipment and if anybody has an interest I'll teach them... But I refuse to sacrifice time that is dedicated to processes and training that will get them jobs.

There are other colleges within our own state system that view things differently than I do..

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-06-2010 16:43

Lawrence: I owe you an apology. I guess I got a bit perturbed the other day while reading the notes in this post. In fact, I was just in a plane old fowl mood, and I should not have replied to the forum on that day.

I went back and read the whole topic again and there was no call for me to respond in that fashion. I guess what bothered me the most, was that you said you don't take the time to teach O/A. Since I'm not a welding instructor, I really don't have the right to critisize anybodies teaching method. I'm sure, no doubt in my mind, that you are a good Instructor and can teach using TIG machines and accoplish the same goal.

I also owe everybody in the Forum an apology, and I am sorry for my attitude during that last note I posted. For some unknown reason I felt that everybody was putting the O/A process down, and as I re-read it today, that was simply not the case. No body was putting it down, there just isn't much popularity with the process anymore. I continously look for small jobs I can use my torch on. It's mainly silver or brass, and in most cases it's better, faster and cheaper to tig than to bother with the torch. O/A welding was probably my first love as it pertains to welding. I guess I got a little defensive on the subject.

I was the one being arragant, not you guys!

I hope you all will accept my apology,
Steve

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-06-2010 17:56

Steve.. Your fine!

I have OFW in my garage as the *only* process I do at home.. Have a nice 3/8" thick steel and pipe worktable that I constructed with OFW... If I had other processes at home, people would find out and I would get no peace on my weekends :)

What is good about OFW??? Well lots of sheetmetal folks use it because nothing makes more ductile welds period. When you have to hammer and dolly, plannish, or run the English wheel over a sheet metal weld, the time saved in plannishing the softer OFW weld outweighs the extra heat distortion in the sheet according to some folks way better at it than I am. And we do discuss and demonstrate the differences between GMAW, GTAW and OFW in our sheet metal fab classes. But the fact is that now a days folks are more likely to use large amounts of filler rather than take the time to properly finish this type of work.

I will say that Ron Covell and Ron Fournier, probably the two primere metal shapers in the U.S. do more GTAW than anything else.

OFW is still a respectable process.. especially for niche craftsmen.. But for your basic entry level worker I struggle to think about what process I would take hours away from in order to teach OFW. So I leave it as an elective.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-06-2010 19:02

I think for someone that is brand new to welding, OFW is a good way to teach things a bit slower because they happen at a bit slower pace with OFW than with mig(GMAW or FCAW)....ie starting a puddle, reading and feeding the puddle, controlling the heat, etc....but I suppose you could use GTAW just the same, but then you add a bit more complexity to the process with the electrical variables and gas shielding.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-06-2010 19:48

Oh I see your point John.

But whether your teaching in-house in industry, or at a college where most students are paying over $125 per credit, people want training results excellent and fast... They want all position competence in GMAW, FCAW, GTAW (steel, stainless & Alum) they also want SMAW in all positions.. Plus comprehensive safety, cutting, gouging, hand tools, fabrication technique and employability skills. They want this in a maximum of 180 hrs of training time per process in college and considerably faster in industry.

They want this yesterday.. Now lets try to convince them that the learner should start the hands on training with a process that 99.9% of them will never use on the job, which also is the absolute slowest of all the joining processes.

Fact of the matter is that a learner can make about 3 or 4 GTAW practice fillet welds on each side of a piece of 11 ga. while with OFW you can prolly make just one and then toss the roasted material away.

I teach beginning GTAW by doing autogenous fusion welds of washers onto 4X4 plate. It teaches puddle reading and torch control that is much more relevant than OFW. 10 washer welds per plate using both sides...

If your in the garage with a teenager or in a High School shop with very limited equipment... By all means use OFW for training in motion and technique... But there are better ways...

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-06-2010 20:20

I'm not disagreeing with your reasoning at all...just pointing out some of my thoughts.

Time is money, no matter what the learning environment may be. Employers expect to get a guy up and running ASAP, and for students who are paying for the training, they also want to get up and running quickly. For them, to realize some accomplishment for their money, feels good and is motivation for them to continue on the path to higher learning.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-06-2010 20:40

I wish more folks thought welding was higher learning John :)

By RioCampo (***)

Date 04-06-2010 21:48

I have 6 torches and one tig machine. My budget for teaching welding in highschool is less that 2k per year. Tungsten is not cheap and beginners go through it pretty quick. I'll stick with OXY/ACET welding as an intro until somebody gets me a bigger budget.

By mtlmster (**)

Date 04-08-2010 15:19

That's alot to learn in 180 days of training. Actually in my opinion, welding school should be a 4 year course. And would be nice if it counted to a bachelor degree in metalergy. It takes years of welding, and trial and error to really get good at the profession.

I remember several years ago I had a temporary helper in my shop and he was the best pipe welder I had ever seen. He could lay some of the best and prettiest beads you ever saw. While he was stick welding on some overflow work I was catching up on a large aluminum production job, and he would come over and watch me tig. He had never seen anyone weld aluminum before although he had been a welder for many years. One day he asked me if he could try welding a couple of pieces of aluminum together. Sure not a problem, I gave him a quick lesson and turned it over to him. To make a short story long, he just flat could not do it, at all! I kept trying to explain the concept, but he never was able to do it. It was hard for me to understand how a certified welder, who was so good at welding pipe, couldn't tig aluminum. He didn't understand either, he kept telling me that I made it look easy, yet he never did even get the pieces to stick together. I think he kept waiting for the aluminum to turn red which I explained that it's not like steel, it don't turn red, it just gets shiney and liquid. He also had a lot of trouble with the coordination required using the foot pedal and both hands. I tried my best to teach him and we took several different sittings practicing.

On the other hand I've taken a friend who didn't know anything about welding, and never welded anything together, and sat him down at my workbench and explained a little about how to tig aluminum, and he actually did pretty good. To learn all phases of welding requires much practice and much patience, which in most cases I've noticed, that learners want to rush the job, and you just have to find out a way to convince them to take their time and use the pedal for heat control.

Also, my oldest son can run a good bead if I set the machine up for him, but when he tries to weld without my help, it just seems he couldn't set the machine. I have two sons and a daughter, and out of the three, my daughter is better at it than either one of my boys. My yougest son definately has the potential to be a good welder, but just wasn't interested in the trade. He is now an Air Force pilot, and really smart and can do just about anything he sets his mind too, but he didn't want to be a welder. I really wanted my sons to pick up the profession, but they chose other professions that they were more interested in.

I'm not sure if I have the patence to teach welding. I'm sure I take a lot of things for granted, that a learner should know but doesn't. And there are so many other aspects to the trade other than running a bead, that to get really good at it a person just needs time and experience. I feel like I've been welding forever and I know there are still things I don't know. It's probably a real challenge to get a class of 25 out after their schooling to be doing good enough to work for a company. I don't envy you at all, in fact my hats off to you, because teaching it is probably harder than learning it.

Take Care
Steve

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-08-2010 16:47

What a great post Steve!

Teaching *IS* learning..

20 student learners over the course of a year will uncover any deficiancy in instructor knowledge.. They FORCE me to learn. They will break everything, poke holes in it.. burn it, crack it, flip every knob and switch.

We have to research questions together.

I think a year as a full time student can prepare an agressive learner for entry as an apprentice as a sheet metal, Iron worker, boilermaker, millwright or HVAC worker...

There are private and even community/Tech colleges that devote more time to specific processes because of the local job need too... You can go to Hobart, Wyo-Tech or Tulsa tech and spend all your time welding pipe if that is where you KNOW you want to go. It's a double edged sword, they leave with a high level of proficiancy in a single task but may lack the versatility to land on their feet elsewhere. Nothin wrong with either track.. Just a choice.

The problem with Associates/Transferrable toward BA type stuff is that much time is taken out of the lab to bring students up to the higher levels of Math, communications, social science etc that are required to get those credits to transfer.. Not a bad thing for learners on an engineering track but I know of several two year associates programs that have less time under the hood than 1 year technical diploma programs. Also many learners need to get to work NOW.. and it's hard to stay as a full time student when you have the skills in one year to land a job. Again.. Not bashing the AA.. Just a choice.

For me teaching is a blast! I could go on for pages about the different ways it can be rewarding.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-28-2010 20:02

I know this is an old thread.. But it was a good discussion and I just stumbled across an academic piece that specifically addresses the value of gas welding on program curriculum.

The Impact of Teaching Oxy-Fuel Welding on Gas
Metal Arc Welding Skills
Sergio D. Sgro, Dennis W. Field and Steven A. Freeman

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/JOTS/v34/v34n1/pdf/sgro.pdf

By TRC

Date 03-31-2010 22:29

Hey WH, Columbia Gas is giving OF tests. I was up there testing and a welder was doing a 6" .125 wall. I did one for UGI in 08 but they discontinued it last year. Sorry no pics-Ted

By PlasmaHead2 (***)

Date 03-31-2010 23:05

I've seen OA Brazing preformed a few times on some copper parts at work... Lots of gas welding/brazing/soldering in the HVAC industry, small copper tubes and such with the funky half circle torches. Other than desperation or artwork its rarely used when you can get power or gas for your genset. Still handy to know how to do it; If the lights every go off OAW welders and people with a forge will be the only ones putting metal together without bolts.
A former co-worker mentioned an old timer that he used to work with that used an internally fluxed carbon steel rod and could produce bright shiny tig like welds with OAW. Id love to get a few sticks of it and try it out, but I think that they are lost to the ages.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 04-01-2010 19:53

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=39654

There's a good thread on people who still swear by using Gas welding on production pieces. It's kinda fallen by the wayside since it's relatively slower than the other processes and gives some undesirable side effects.

It is still used quite a bit on small airplane repair, mostly because they have always done it with OA and the weld quality is just fine.

Now adays I would say it's mostly for repair, brazing and cutting. It doesn't make sense to do production work anymore with gas. Too slow.

By RioCampo (***)

Date 04-01-2010 21:35

I teach it in my shop classes in highschool. It's much cheaper to teach than tig and gives students the basics of TIG welding as far as position and motion. I find we actually use it quite a bit, mostly in automotive repair.
i haven't seen it used much except in repair and refrigeration systems in a long time.
i have seen guys that fast tigging, but I know a few that are just as fast with a torch. New processes are the thing though.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 04-02-2010 16:25

when I was taught how to weld, they started us on Gas as well, as it does help get the concept of Tig welding such as using both hands. In my shop now, the only thing our guys use it for is cutting and heating and occasionally brazing some small widget.

By strother (***)

Date 04-02-2010 02:42

I use it for repairing pin holes in hyd. lines. I tried tig welding them but by the time you get it clean enough to tig you could have already brazed it . I use a slightly carburizing flame , makes it flow better.

By 357max

Date 04-07-2010 22:13

MDU in the Dakotas, Montana & Minnesota is welding 2 inch 5G downhill with a 2X carburizing flame. Wire is added above the flame as the torch is moved from 12 to 6.