D1.1 Spray 2G Cert test ROOT

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-15-2010 03:48

Welcome to the forum Dan-0

How did it fail?

Did the root fail visual or did it fail during guided bends.. If it failed during bending, exactly what did the defect/s look like.??

Gun angle... Drag bad, push good.

Arc voltage.. Long arc bad, short arc (still spraying) good.

Travel speed... should not be too slow.. Large bulky root passes often have a lack of fusion.

Was it a single bevel or V-groove? Technique differs slightly with each.

Tell us more.. We will tell you more.

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-15-2010 04:11

Sorry, Lawrence, for the lack of details.

The root passed visually but it failed with the guided bends. I didn't see them after the fact, just heard from a fellow CWI and trusted friend. He said there was a "tear" in the root at the 90 degree 1" plate. By the way, single bevel 1" plate for unlimited thickness qualification.

My travel speed is good. I use the push technique and keep my gun angle at 5-10 degrees.

I think it could possibly be my machine settings. I run 26V and 380 W/S..

By 803056

Date 04-18-2010 18:27

Pushing GMAW except on thin material isn't the best technique.

Al

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-18-2010 19:05 Edited 04-21-2010 03:36

Not according to CWIs and instructors in the Midwest. It's spray transfer, not short-circuit.

By 803056

Date 04-18-2010 19:39 Edited 04-18-2010 19:42

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "You can always tell a welder, but you can't tell him much."

Spray, short circuiting, globular, pushing the arc can push the puddle in front of the arc and result in incomplete fusion. The exception, in my humble opinion, is on thin material when you want to minimize penetration and on aluminum. Does it happen every time? No, but often enough that due consideration should be given before using the "push technique". If you are experiencing incomplete fusion, pushing can be one of the possible culpits.

Carry on.

Point of information, not all CWIs can weld.

Al

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-18-2010 19:49

Lmfao

By 803056

Date 04-18-2010 20:14

I thought it was good for a chuckle.

Al ;)

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 04-18-2010 21:33

Daniel,
Agree totally with Al.
Have a look at this posting. There are numerous postings on this issue in the search engine.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=150419;hl=

Regards,
Shane

By 803056

Date 04-18-2010 22:02

Which part, "You can always tell a welder..." or push vs. pull? ;)

I missed that thread. Thanks for listing it.

Best regards - Al

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 04-19-2010 00:04

Both.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-18-2010 22:18

I politely disagree in the strongest terms.

Pushing GMAW in the spray transfer mode is the best way to assure root fusion in either grooves or fillets.

Dragging (backhand) gun angles for SPRAY GMAW leads to electrode filler wire generally being delivered to the middle of the weld pool rather than the leading edge.. This causes lack of sidewall fusion and lack of fusion at the root.

Try a fillet break test with spray GMAW with Push and with drag... The push angle will have root fusion much more consistantly.

Short circuiting transfer is another matter.... Push angle produces shallower penetration which may be a benefit in thinner materials... For thick materials better penetration is gottan with a drag angle...

It's funny Al... This topic has been covered dozens of times here in the foum and I don't recall us ever disagreeing on it. Humph!

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-18-2010 23:16 Edited 04-21-2010 03:27

Lawrence,

I'm sorry for posting in the first place.

Have a good one!

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-18-2010 23:26 Edited 04-18-2010 23:29

Daniel...

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all..

I was disagreeing with Al (803056) <who is my better >

Al and I have been discussing similar topics for the better part of a decade... This is why I was suprised by his answer.

Definatly not criticising you or your question... Your questions are VERY welcome.

I apologize if my post was misunderstood as some sort of rebuke of your original posting./// That was not the intent at all.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 04-18-2010 23:40

Lawrence,
Another posting that explains my position a bit better. I agree with you regarding the position of the wire relative to the puddle.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=36400;hl=GMAW

However, what I am trying to say is if you increase the angle past 10 degrees from vertical on the drag technique the weld will look like crap but you will still be getting penetration / fusion.
If you do the same thing with the push technique the puddle gets further and further in front of the arc and you get a good looking weld with no penetration / fusion.

Regards,
Shane

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-18-2010 23:50 Edited 04-21-2010 03:26

Lawrence,

I know what you meant by your previous post. I am completely agreeing with you.

Thanks!

By mightymoe (**)

Date 04-19-2010 00:51

Hello Daniel,
I'm not familiar with nor have I taken this test but I do have some questions for you if you don't mind.
How does your root pass look visually? 2G is more likely to have cold lap if one tries to carry too much metal.
Is the test open root or is there a backing strip? What technique are you using for your root pass?

On open root "V" groove with direct metal transfer I use a drag angle, keeping the wire at the edge of the molten weld pool, using a "C"or "J" patern, keeping the pattern as tight as possible.

Let us know what changes if any work for you. It will help the next guy.
Thanks

By 803056

Date 04-19-2010 03:51 Edited 04-19-2010 11:31

When it comes to welding, there is more than one way to skin the cat. Never say "It can't be done that way!" because sure as the devil, that welder will show you he can do his way!

I've worked with a lot of welders that "push" the arc when attempting to take their tests. I sit back and let them do their thing until they give up in frustration. At that point the testing is done and I switch gears when they ask the question, "What am I doing wrong?"

The instructor hat goes on and I show how I do it. I never say, "This is the way to do it!" I usually say, "This is the way I do it." And then we test it. They can see the results for themselves. They can then return to their method or they can try my method. If they choose to continue with their method, they're on their own. If they want to give my method a try, I'll work with them and in a short while they almost always pass.

I always say, "Ask six welders a question and you'll get six different answers."

You didn't say which test or what material your testing on (maybe I simply missed it), but let me know how you make out with the push technique, especially if your welding on carbon steel plate. You may be working on open root pipe, different story, but I wouldn't think spray transfer would be the optimum choice for that application.

Hang in there kid, you'll get the hang of it sooner or later. ;)

All I can say at this point is "I've passed the test. Have you?"

By the way, "Yea, I've welded before, and plenty of it." I've been welding for over 45 years on structural, pipe, aluminum, carbon steel, stainless steel, nickel, and aluminum. I won't tell you I'm the expert, but I've passed my share of welder qualification tests. I know enough to listen to the answers when I ask a question and then weigh the information and try a couple of samples before I tell the "instructor" he's wrong.

Best regards - Al

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-19-2010 15:24 Edited 04-20-2010 04:32

Hi Daniel Castleman!

ROTFLMFAOAAA!!! Keep coming back kid!!! You'll learn a lot in here no matter how much you think you know at such a young age!!! :) :)

1984???? Man!!! I was already welding for a living over ten years by the time you were born, and I was very much still "Wet behind the ears" back in those days!!! :) :) :)

Now Daniel, you need to give us much more information beside what you gave us in your original post because without it we cannot give you an educated as well as an experienced piece of advice. So please do so! ;)

What should you include??? First, the grade of steel, the grade & diameter of filler wire, the type of shielding gas being used & flow rate, CTWD, whether or not the contact tip is recessed or not in relation to the nozzle... You mentioned that it was for unlimited certification using 1" plate, but you didn't mention which code specifically, or whether or not a backing strip was used, or the root gap & land if any... Whether or not there was any pre-heat & interpass temperature controls, etc.

So if you could provide us with as much information as possible ,we could give you combined, some pretty sound suggestions which could help you in passing the test in the future at the very least, because after all as Steve mentioned in an earlier post, We're NOT mind readers!!! ;) ;) ;)

Btw, I have given that test to many, many (in the hundreds) students in the past also and from my experience, it's not even close in comparing how many students failed because of improper technique which was the use of a forehand technique as well as excessive travel angle also!!! ;) When compared to the use of the backhand technique along with the proper travel and work angle, CTWD, shielding gas for spray transfer of mild steel, etc., the failure rate with the use of the forehand technique was overwhelmingly more frequent due to LOF and incomplete penetration between the passes.

So there are a lot of variables that can contribute to either passing or failing this test, and technique is an important one yet not the only one IMHO!!! :) :) :)
Please tell us more details and btw I almost forgot!!! "WELDCOME TO THE WORLD'S GREATEST WELDING FORUM!!! :) :) :)"

Respectfully,
Henry

By 803056

Date 04-19-2010 22:37

You are so good with words Henry. Not a single tootsie stepped on or trampled.

I wish I could be so diplomatic.

Best regards - Al

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-20-2010 04:35

Thanks Al!

But honestly, we all know who is the better diplomat between us two, and I don't mind at all stating that it is you without a doubt!!! ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By 803056

Date 04-20-2010 04:47

You are a silver-tongued devil!

I hope you are feeling better.

Best regards - Al

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-20-2010 06:09

I'm hanging in there buddy!!! :) :) :) They're gonna have to nuke me on a "mega-tonnage" scale in order to kill me Al! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-21-2010 02:58

I NEVER said I KNEW everything. No one will EVER know everything in this industry. Btw, I passed the test!

By 803056

Date 04-21-2010 03:46

Congratulations!

Best regards - Al

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-21-2010 03:54

Thank you, Al.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-21-2010 05:13

We have a winner after al!!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-21-2010 06:02

Not surprised you passed the test :)

But can you nail down what you did differently the second time?

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-21-2010 10:22 Edited 04-21-2010 10:33

Henry~WOW....!

Lawrence~i increased my gun angle on the 90* base metal and slowed down more.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-21-2010 15:50

So I'm guessing here, but excessive travel angle, and to fast of a travel speed were probably the culprits - correct?

Heck! there's not an honest person I know that hasn't failed a test or two before in their careers because of such tiny little errors, and I'm including myself amongst that bunch of welders...

It's a good thing that you had another chance right away to re-test... Some folks are not that fortunate. ;) Once again congratulations, and if it's any consolation - that test is NOT as easy a test as many welders think it is... So go get-em kid!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 04-23-2010 14:24

Daniel,

Glad you found an area of the process that may have been your problem and passed the test.

Now, Welcome to the AWS Welding Forum.

As you may have noticed, we don't always totally agree with each other. But there is much to be gleaned here from many sources with widely varying experiences. What works for one in a particular case may not work for another. Mainly because we don't always apply everything exactly the same. Too slow of travel for you may seem fast to someone else. Usually it will take a second set of eyes to help tweek in all the perameters to make sure you are actually travelling at the WPS called out speeds and the same speed another poster said worked for him.

This was actually a very mild thread without major disagreements. Minor differences are to be expected. Communication is such a fragile thing. Did you see me smile while I said that? It is difficult to know the emotions and spirit of someone responding in printed form to a question or comment.

Don't give up on asking ANY question. Don't get upset if someone disagrees with a response you post. I would have left the first time I asked a question if I did that. Oh, that hurt Henry! Did you hear that Daniel? He just said he had hoped I would! NO! It takes many different views and experiences to help us fully utilize our human ability to pool knowledge for the benefit of all.

I am very glad you asked the question. And even though there are other threads here on it, it never hurts to review and go over certain things again.

Hope you found the info, especially Henry's, useful. He abounds with resources and makes it easy for us to find info.

Have a Great Day, and stick around, Brent

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 04-23-2010 15:04

Brent,
Have to agree totally with your posting.
Henry and I have had a few fallings out over the years but his knowledge and contributions to the forum are second to none.
Welcome to the forum Daniel,
Regards,
Shane

By cwi2009 (**)

Date 04-23-2010 22:35

Thanks, Brent and Shane (and all the rest)! I appreciate your advice. I would like to apologize for my stubbornness in this post. I will stick around for sure and look forward to learning a lot more from all you guys. Have a great weekend!

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 04-25-2010 02:28

No problem Daniel. I just don't like to see people discouraged because they have possibly read more into the disagreements than what was actually there. Look forward to hearing more from you.

Have a Great Day, Brent