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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Rare Earth Tungsten
- - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 05-24-2010 19:57
What are it's uses?  Is it intended for a specific material?  I have never seen or used it before just curious.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 05-24-2010 20:56
Chemically, tungsten is not a rare earth, it's a metal. Look at the periodic table of elements and you won't see it listed among rare earths.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 05-24-2010 21:11
It was calling it rare earth like if it was lable 2% thoriated.  That is why I am asking it just sounded strange.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-25-2010 01:53
Hi Jeremy! Were you trying to find out about the 2% Thorium that's added to the tungsten??? Or do you have what is known as Ceriated or Lanthanated tungsten electrodes, and you would like to find out] more about the "rare earth" metal elements which are added to the Tungsten in order to give the end user excellent arc characteristics especially on non-ferrous metal Gas Tungsten Arc Welding applications like Aluminum, some Austenitic Stainless steels, Nickel based alloys... Am I understanding you so far???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-25-2010 02:41
The "rare earth" are the elements added to pure tungsten in place of thorium oxide.

Thorium oxide produces alpha particles, which do not promote good health.

The rare earths, as mentioned by Henry, replace the thorium oxide so no alpha particles are emitted, thus eliminating the health hazards associated with them.

You can use the rare earth tungstens anyplace you would normally use EWTh-1 or EWTh-2, i.e., typically with DCEN.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-25-2010 10:14
Jeremy

The "Rare Earth" electrodes you are looking at are most likely a propriatary mix of  Lanthanum, Cerium, Zirconium or possibly a combination of the three.

They are referred to by AWS as  "EWG" .    This is the classification for tungsten electrodes that do not have a specific recognized doping percentage as of yet, or because the maker refuses to divulge their recipie.

The price looks good.  But I wouldn't buy a large lot without checking them out personally first.  Weldcraft is a respected brand.

They would probably be useful for both AC and DC  GTAW.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-25-2010 16:29
"or because the maker refuses to divulge their recipie".

This kind of thinking I always found curious. What this means is that the manufacturer knows whats in it. The competition, with testing resources, knows whats in it. The only person who doesn't know whats in it is the poor bastard that is actually using the thing. And what purpose does that serve?
It works that way with so called proprietary SAW fluxes and power source technology.
Proprietary really is only proprietary to the users. Essentially, us.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-25-2010 17:43
Doesn't make sense to me either.

When we were running PQR's and trials for Rolls and CFM aerospace componants we were required to specify tungsten type..  So we went to the manufacturers and explained this to them, and they still would not produce the contents..  So we just went with something else.

For  most manual GTAW or Plasma electrodes.. My advice is try them if you want,,,, If they work... Use em.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-25-2010 12:41
I thought thoria was a metal too.  The problem is it is radioactive.  They are even working of designs for thoria nuclear reactors to replace uranium reactors.

The rare earth electrodes are more EHS friendly.  They don't have the health "concerns" and waste disposal issues that come from grinding dust from thoriated tungstens - not that there has ever been a proven case of health damage though.
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 05-25-2010 15:26
The welders on the job im currently on have to use the rare  earth tungstens as the Hp guys are concerned
with the radioactive dust made when gribnding thoriated tungsten
Parent - - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 05-25-2010 23:37
So do they act like thoriated tungsten?
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 05-26-2010 01:01
I use 1.5 La almost exclusivley for DCEN TIG.  I primarly use 1.5 as you can still buy USA made ESAB electrodes in that alloy and percentage.

I have used quite a bit of Ce, 1% La, and 2% La as well.  I also have used many boxes of Diamond Ground Products "Unspecified" gray banded "Trimix" electrode.

IMO none of them are in the performance league of 2% thoriated on DCEN.  Their tips just errode very quickly compared to thoriated.  None the less I use 1.5 La as I don't want to learn 15 years from now that thorium dust or vapor is worse than we used to think.

All of those alloys do outperform 2% thorium on AC though as they don't "spike".

Still on AC I prefer pure for most applications, unless maybe I am on a Miller inverter.  I still believe pure works better, even on an advanced square wave, for most applications, but some of the Millers (Dynasty series) just don't like to arc start a spherically ended pure electrode.  The new Lincoln Invertec 311 seems to start them no problem though.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-26-2010 01:07
That is a matter of much debate.

The suppliers will claim they act the same as thoriated and some weldors might be willing to agree.

The weldors at the aerospace shop I just got laid off from HATED anything but thoriated electrodes.

We found that we could not use anything but thoriated in our automatic orbital welders due to electrode life and arc voltage issues.  EHS kept trying to force us away from thoriated but the operators and engineering managers kept pushing back to keep thoriated.  If they made the switch they would have to redevelop something like 400 orbital weld procedures since the arc energy would change that much.  It would be less critical with a manual TIG weld made with a foot pedal control.

I ran some tests and found electrode life as little as 3-5 welds with rare earth and as high as 30-50 welds with thoriated (for orbital welds).
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 05-27-2010 21:43
we experienced the same thing, Diamond ground gave us some of their "unspecified" grey tungstens, but we have yet to escape thoriated rods for our automated circumferential weld machines. Too much hassle to requalify procedures especially when what we already have works.  i can't attest to electrode life because  I never got a chance to use them enough.

like a lot of things sometimes the best solution turns out to be the best because of some hazard physical property.  A lot of the best solvent cleaners are illegal or uneconomical to use in the USA. not that killing our workers and our environment beats having cheaper widgets.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 05-28-2010 00:15
This reminds me, I have a PINK banded tungsten from DGP in my desk.  I will have to give it a try on some pipe tomorrow.  It is their cryo treated 2% thoriated.  Don't know where they came up with PINK.  It clearly says on the package it is a A5.12 EWTh-2.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-28-2010 03:48
I miss listening to "Rare Earth!!!" They were a great band back in the late Sixties - early Seventies MAN!!! ?:>) :) :)
Great music back in the day!!! ;) Ohhh yeah man, we're talking about some "Pink" Wulfram man??? Wooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!! I thought these drugs were good but pheeeeeeeeewwwww!!! Dude!!! These are exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcccccccccccccccccelllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllent Mannnnnnnnnnnn;) ;) ;)

The Hankster Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Rare Earth Tungsten

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