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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Locking Tulsa Welding School thread
- - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-20-2010 00:48
This has insured the thread drops off the forum in time. The thread cannot be Bumped to keep it active.
I guess the moderators thought it was getting out of hand? Or did one of the educators or advertisers ring AWS bell?
Anybody think this is hinkey? I figured after the glowing write up in the Welding Journal it would not get as far nor last as long as it did.
Hopefully it will not get dropped off this section.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-20-2010 01:20 Edited 06-20-2010 01:22
I have ask them to move it to the Off Topic. Personally I think it is a bunch of BS ! The three guys that turned into a heated discussion HAD JUST JOINED THE FORUM ! That was the only thread they posted on ! I think they should banned them instead of the thread ! You  can rest assured of ONE THING. IT AIN'T OVER !!!!! I wonder how much I should spend in Advertising with AWS to get them to unlock it ?
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-20-2010 03:15 Edited 06-20-2010 03:19
Ross may move it to OTBG, but that does the same a locking the thread. It is available to those who know about this section. But the ones that will benefit from this thread will not have it.
My bone to pick with TWS is the way they market it to High School teachers who give the salesmen the class. The kids take it home and the parents think because it came from the school it is on the up and up.
And based on the answers that were coming out just before the thread was locked TWS knows there are students that are not doing their coupons.
That came from an instructor.
Now in the real world, that means you bust the test. You do not get a 2.0 GPA. You piss off a inspector that may write your name down and remember it for a LONG time. This may have been why the thread was locked.
TWS knows things are going on that are not right. I have tested up to 20 welders at a time in two shifts on one day. That is 40 welders tested in 8 hours.
I kept up with the checking fit ups, bead visual, taking readings, cap visual and approving strap prep. The final was the bend test and the welder went to the iron horse and I got the coupons as they came off the machine.
Never lost track of a coupon nor one of the little darlins trying to replace a coupon. It is not hard. If a student can slip in a coupon that someone else welded that means the instructor does not know how each welder welds and what they look like.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-20-2010 13:54
BigK,
  One thing that I have heard directly from three different weld shops in the Tulsa area is that as a result of the poor quality of "welders" coming out of TWS they will not even consider hiring someone fresh out of their course. This has been their standing for about 5 years now. These shops are within spitting distance of TWS and have seen MANY of their "welders" first hand. These are all GMAW/FCAW shops, the two easiest processes to "master". I believe that is a very poor reflection on TWS when this many of their "graduate's" or "master welders" can not even cut it in the easiest of processes.

So while I will not name these shops for obvious reasons, if you apply and TWS is on your resume, rest assured that yours is going to the bottom of the stack never to be seen again.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=25481

jrw159
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-29-2010 20:09
OK our software has been repaired...it's moved and un-locked for now, we'll see where this goes..........and whether it stays un-locked.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-20-2010 10:17 Edited 06-20-2010 10:19
Big K, I locked it....my forum software won't work to move it(broken with the last upgrade), so until ross gets back...it's locked. TWS and AWS don't have anything going together, that I'm aware of. It just didn't need to be aired out on one of the main pages of the forum. If ross wants to move it to the OTBG, he can....

I had already spoken with Cactus via PM, and I THOUGHT we understood each other....I guess not.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-20-2010 13:58
I just don't see why the ones who started trouble are not banned and leave the thread where
It is
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-20-2010 14:33 Edited 06-20-2010 14:47
I can't ban anyone. Ross is the only one who can do that. So until he comes back and can move the thread out of the public forum area, it is what it is.

If you would like me to delete the thread I can.....or I can just lock it for now until ross can help us out...you choose.

I don't feel it is appropriate to air all of this out where all visitors to the forum can read. It sounds like a legal battle for you and your lawyers that doesn't need to be publicized here and associated with AWS in any way. I certainly don't endorse anything that you say TWS has done(if it is all true). Do I have all of the facts...no. All I see is a mob jumping TWS with a few TWS supporters trying to save face for TWS....who is right?...I can't say, again I don't have all of the facts. Can you imagine the trouble AWS could be in...IF....your case goes to trial and they find that TWS has done no wrong, yet we leave a thread on here bashing TWS for wrong doings? TWS' lawyers would have us for lunch for allowing a thread like that to stand.

EDIT: please understand that no one can go around bashing a company's or even an individual's name....there are legal consequences if the company's name is damaged. They can come after you for those damages, if they want to persue it.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-20-2010 21:41
As BIGK said. Fair enough and I DO agree with you. However, I do want everyone to know, I ONLY posted what I had Proof for and what was told to ME by TWS Administrators. I would much rather see it moved than re moved !
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-20-2010 20:18
Cactus,
  I disagree that they should be banned. Let them speak. I can not fault the mods for locking the thread in question. While it is a very valid issue it is also a very volatile one that may be better hashed out somewhere other than the open forum.

As long as they keep putting out "welders" like that, expecting to get by code inspectors, there will be disappointments. :-)

I feel your pain.

jrw159
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-23-2010 16:37 Edited 06-30-2010 11:48
Cactus,
  Here is why I say let them speak. This guy did a pretty good job of exposing himself as a TWS affiliate. He also pretty much said they do not monitor the students to prevent cheating and I find this to be absolutely absurd. So if damage control was his objective he FAILED miserably. LOL

I am not sure how many of us caught on pretty quickly to Jaxddad (Dwight Haberly) but I feel that his actions in this thread speak pretty poorly of him and by extension TWS.

Notice in his second post he states "I just found this last night. I am not doing damage control thank you very much. They got my money too....."

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=190147;hl=

Then in his fifth post.. Out comes the truth.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=190183;hl=

"My name is Dwight Haberly and I am not hidding a thing I am a Instructor at Tulsa welding school."

Well now, what a difference from post #2 to post #5. Pretty strange actions from someone who is "not hiding a thing".

FWIW I did verify that this person is in fact an instructor at TWS.

jrw159

EDITED to add bold lettering and grammer.
EDIT #2: Removed "liar" and replaced with "TWS affiliate".
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-23-2010 17:44
It pretty much doesn't pass the smell test...  But it could be possible that the guy was a former student (they got his money) and is an instructor now.

Not really sticking up for the guy..

I appreciate what Cactus is trying to do (I think pretty succsessfully)

Every once in a while a student will cheat (however, I don't think cheating is what the problem here is anyhow)  It's not hard to catch cheaters if you know what to look for and set up hold points on the student WPS's... Welds are like signatures.  

Only two things make me mad enough as a teacher to holler at my students and come down with thunder and lightening.....  Cheating,,, and handing the me a hot piece of metal without telling me.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-23-2010 17:58
"....handing the me a hot piece of metal without telling me."_quote

LOL... I was "hot as a fire cracker"(pun intended) just yesterday over this very thing. Was called over to UT a full pen plate and the welder never said "wait a minute and let it cool off, I just finished"....or anything of the sort...but he said "I need this UT'd so I can get it off my table. ...in a manner as to say that he's been waiting on me....I was terribly busy, so I grabbed my UT bag and headed over, placed the bag on the beam a few feet down from the plate, and reached in to get the machine out (not knowing how hot that plate was) and my elbow hit the corner of that hot plate and took the skin off.....that beam sat there for a while longer before I came back to finish what I started.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-23-2010 18:30
Lawrence,
  I believe that he was a student and then an instructor. However I was thinking he was a student and saw what a sweet little "lick" the instructors at TWS had and wanted his piece of the pie and became an instructor. LOL Hopefully I am wrong about that.

"It's not hard to catch cheaters if you know what to look for and set up hold points on the student WPS's... Welds are like signatures."

I could not agree more. It disturbs me to hear the comments about not knowing if he was the one that actually welded his test pieces. I would think that for what TWS is charging and what their goal is that come test time the student would be closely monitored. I do not know of to many places in the real world that will let a welder test out unmonitored. That just defies logic and opens the door very wide for cheaters. Every WQTR I have ever seen has a line for "Witnessed by". If it is blank I have to assume no one witnessed it and that opens the door for other questions. Now I do not like to think that people will cheat when not monitored but as sad as it is, it is a fact of life. When the pressure is on and no one is looking some people will cheat.

I guess the problem I have is with the way it unfolded. Initially he made it sound like he was an ex student with no affiliation with TWS and was not doing "damage control" and this is obviously not the case. IMHO

I would love to have the opportunity to witness a test at TWS and see how they are visually tested before and after the bend tests. Something tells me that there may be some areas of concern there. Are they being evaluated correctly to the set out criteria or is there a lot of "well that's close enough" going on? Send a kid out in the real world thinking "Close enough will work" and that kid is in for a disappointing short ride.

Now I know I am preaching to the choir here Lawrence, as you are a very fine instructor who obviously takes great pride in what you do and as an extension of that, the success of your students.

jrw159
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-24-2010 02:28
Sounds like (TO ME) that the Instructors Cheat more than the Students !
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-24-2010 06:02
Keep beating the drum Dwyane.

Nobody becomes a "Master Welder"  in a couple of weeks..  Ever.

Reformation is a good thing..  I bet it happens..
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-24-2010 11:00
I am still waiting on Ross to return !
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-20-2010 19:26 Edited 06-21-2010 02:43
Fair enough John, I apologize.  Maybe a sticky on the reason. Your explanation is in the middle of the thread and gets lost. I
When a thread is getting as much attention as this one was, locking it with no explanation or having the explanation get lost in the thread as to why makes some of us think something is hinky. As a moderator on other internet forums I understand your position. And a moderator has a sometimes thankless job.
AWS should take note. THIS is one reason recruiting workers into this trade is hard. The old timers should be encouraging young people to follow them into this trade. I do encourage guys to learn this trade, but I do not sugar coat the fact they will be screwed, blued and tattooed by the time they master this skill. I am on the higher end of this profession and I still wake up mornings wondering if I have wasted my career. It has been interesting, but seeing how things are getting in the industry, why anyone would ever think of becoming a welder is beyond me. There are trades that appreciate the younger talent that is available and do not look to take advantage of them.
But this is going no where. We will piss and moan and nothing will change.
China and Vietnam will kick out butts, and maybe the industry will wake up, but by then, the tribal knowledge will be gone.
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 06-20-2010 23:40
BigK, Is that the "drift "you got from the instructors statement about coupons be switched at testing, I thought thats what he ment but couldn't believe he would state it publicly!!!!! Doesn't that sound like a dereliction of your job duties!!!!! You have to be smarter than your students or they WILL take the easy way out( a percentage will, just like at a real job) Schools teaching the up & comers need to be above this nonsence or they will be held accountable . Just the way it should be in a free market where you should get what you pay for..... Cactus opened up a can of worms on this one!!!!!
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 06-21-2010 00:06
If you are gonna be unethical, there should be as few witnesses to this event as possible.
My take on it is, how much energy and financial resource do you have to keep the "dragon in its lair"????
A SECRET is something only ONE person knows!

I'm too old and tired to dig holes..........
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-21-2010 00:15 Edited 06-21-2010 00:26
I'm Glad I opened the can !  Cause it STINKS and I know where the Lysol is !!!  The Instructor seemed to know an AWFUL LOT about Bogus coupons
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 06-21-2010 01:07
IF and I am only saying IF........they "know" that someone has passed thru by having someone ELSE weld their test coupons.............come ON............is their student/teacher ratio SO high they can't keep tabs on who is welding test nipples...........what else do they not keep track of.  This stinks to high heaven.........and the last minute sign-ups by the TWS commandos confirms it.   They can't weld, can't spell; and are behaving BADLY.....showing their arses on a public forum.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 06-21-2010 01:23
If these people were SO on top of their game, they would have been honorable participants with a history in this forum instead of coming in with drivel.

I could give a rats pitooey what kinda rig you come to me with. When you walk out of the (MY) test booth, bend or X-ray will separate the Welders from the wannna-bees
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-21-2010 22:05
I wonder when Ross wiill be back  ?
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 06-23-2010 18:50
I am wondering when Ross will be back..............with the forum down I half expected it to come back with a TWS ad banner across the top!!  Not sure WHAT happened there; there's no stickies or announcement that I can see about it being down.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 06-24-2010 02:19
I didn't have time to log on last night, and was wondering why there were so few new posts. Now knowing the forum was down explanes it.
Parent - By ross (***) Date 06-26-2010 18:51
John,

Darn, I can't move it either. Will get that fixed.

Ross
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 06-25-2010 14:06
Sorry the forum server went down. That was unrelated to the TWS discussion. I didn't want to move it because our people are currently looking at the comments in the thread and I don't want them to have to dig into the OTB&G.

Ross
AWS Marketing
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-26-2010 02:26
For the Record. I have PROOF of EVERY comment I made. If anyone wants to see it, Just ask. Any chance of Unlocking it ?
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-26-2010 03:09
Regardless, My mission is to talk to every high school counselor in this part of the country and high school welding instructor and be sure they know what type of people TWS are. There are a lot of fine J C welding programs in this part of the country and I will encourage the kids to go this direction. But there is a lot of pull to that 7 month program and then they will be making "Big" bucks.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-26-2010 03:13
I will tell EVERYONE who will listen ! The ONLY thing anyone will ever make after completeing the 7 month program at TWS is........... Payments for a student loan !
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-26-2010 18:03
Can we hear the result of their findings ?
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 06-26-2010 18:16
We are deciding if the forum should be a place for people to debate the business practices of any entity. I am thinking probably not.

Ross
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 06-26-2010 18:23
awwww  Ross, come on........the OTB&G is fair game for politics, religion, and any other topic..........business practices are not fair game??  This smacks; just SMACKS mind you..............of someone somewhere being worried about advertising dollars.  You've been real decent about most everything here.........let's keep it that way!
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 06-26-2010 18:49
No, it's the quality of the forum. There are no ads here. Do you guys want this to be a positive place or a negative place?

The Tulsa thread isn't in the OTB&G. If moving it here is all you want, I'll try. I'm actually having trouble with the moving function, but besides, I thought there was some opinion that moving it here would not be a satisfactory solution.

Ross
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-26-2010 19:10 Edited 06-26-2010 19:20
It is My opinion that TWS advertises their relationship with AWS. The Director at TWS told me about their support they receive from AWS, PERSONALLY, as we discussed on the phone. If nothing is going to be done about their behavior and actions, then move it to the OTB&G, Unlock it and Let it roll. It is obvious that most of us on here truly believe in OUR Trade and want to see it succeed. I did not start the thread about TWS to advertise for them, I dont think the thread was considered and AD. I put it there to further the Education of ANYONE even REMOTELY considering TWS as a choice for a school. They need to know what to expect. I know that you or anyone with AWS,  can't truly believe that what they have done is ok. Do you ? I have always been under the opinion that AWS would stand behind what is RIGHT AND FAIR. Why not do that now ? Would it be a quality Forum to let these actions continue and NONE of us do or say anything about it ? Buisness Practices are dicussed here on a daily basis. A "code" either enforced or not enforced by any given company is a buisness practice. All of the Reference to any given Welder repair shop is a buisness practice as well as a advertisement. Job for welders are AD's   This is no different. The thread was going well until the TWS Commandos joined in. Why should ANYONE HIDE THE FACT OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING ? DOING IT TO SOMEONE WHO IS MENTALLY CHALLENGED AND DOING IT TO THEIR FAMILY IS AS LOW AS IT GETS ! If it is removed from here, I would like to request that AWS contact ME for and Advertisement in their Magazine I will pay Full Price for a FULL TWO PAGE AD. And I will not put the AWS logo on it like TWS does. Or Jay Leno's Garage
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-29-2010 15:54
Ross, Dont I deserve a response to my post ?
Parent - By ross (***) Date 06-29-2010 16:23
I hadn't moved a thread in a real long time, so when I tried to unlock and move the Tulsa thread, it didn't work, just like John Wright had experienced. So I am trying to get that fixed.

Ross
Parent - - By 65 Pipeliner (**) Date 06-27-2010 02:30
Why not? We debate alot of things here.

Chris
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-27-2010 03:10 Edited 06-27-2010 03:14
I believe it comes down to being on the regular forum and locked or on the OTBG and unlocked.
If it is on the regular forum and locked, it will fall off. If it is here and unlocked it can be discussed and we can be open about what is thought about TWS and its principles, or lack thereof.
But on the OTBG the beneficiary of the discussion, potential students and their parents, will not even know the thread exist.
So it comes to being on the regular forum and locked or here and open.

There are ways to continue the discussion on the open forum and not mention Tulsa Welding School directly. Such as a welding school in the second largest city in Oklahoma, or That Welding School what is located in the second largest city in Oklahoma, Just ideas

Cactus?
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-27-2010 03:36
Works for me. I say we unlock it in here AND talk in  "code" in the Public forum. I have also thought about Unlocking it in here and placeing a post on the public to let everyone know where it is, I wonder if AWS will contact me about placing an Ad in their magazine ? I also wonder why Ross hasn't responded to my post here ? I think I had some valid points
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-27-2010 19:32
But from a business side it comes from which hill you want to die on. Something tells me the resources available to That Welding School would be greater than those of AWS and the end results would be That Welding School would wind up with $$ from us. Hopefully the management of that Welding School gets the message there are those in the industry that will be on the lookout for their graduates.
And not in a good way!
Maybe they will change their ways, but for less $$$, I doubt it.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 06-27-2010 22:03
I will say this If "That No-Welding School" Wants to come after me........ Once again,  I AINT HARD TO FIND. I wish JUST ONE of their Reps had the Balls to come here and talk about it. We all know that that will never happen. I will go heads up with the Entire Organization of the Oklamhoma No Welding School, Anytime, Anywhere. There is no doubt in my mind that they read these post. And the Gutless wonders have yet to contact me, even after I have called them numerous times and let them know about the Threads and what my intentions are, AND I LEFT MY CONTACT INFO
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 06-27-2010 10:44
dbigkahunna
Well then don't forget their other welding school  that is in the largest city, in area, in the continental United States.
Marshall
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Locking Tulsa Welding School thread

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