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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / vertical Mig...need help
- - By Goose (**) Date 08-12-2002 23:26
I've always had trouble with vertical Mig...beads running like paint would.

I'm building a car trailer currently and am presently cutting/fitting and tacking all the pieces together. I tacked the beaver tail sections on yesterday (using 1/2" long beads/tacks) and even they showed signs of the bead running/sagging.

The machine is a Millermatic 251, baseline settings per chart in machine, 17 volts, 305 wire speed, 75/25 argon/co2 gas mix, regulator set on 20. The frame is 2" x 5" rectangular box tube with a wall thickness of .120" (11 ga). The beavertail is a butt weld, but all the rest of the welds will be 90 degree inside corner fillet welds. I tried slowing the wire speed down on a test piece which didn't seem to make much difference. Also, the bead height on the test welds seems kinda high...I would have thought the beads would lay down flatter than this...are the baseline settings inside the cover off?

I really need to figure this problem out as most of the welds on this project are vertical...I've avoided these welds in the past due to these problems, so now it's time to find the cause...machine settings or operator error.

Thanks for any suggestions...I've got plenty of scrap to practice/play with to get the technique/settings right:)

Todd
http://www.malibumotorsports.cjb.net

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'm running .030" diameter ER70s-6 solid wire.
Parent - - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 08-13-2002 03:33
the baseline settings inside the cover are usually for welding in the flat position. I don't have my book handy, and i usually don't go by numbers, but 17 volts sounds kinda hot for vertical. try 15 or 16 volts, and adjust the feed speed so it sounds the same as the setting for 17 volts/305 ipm. your steel isn't very thick, so moving downhill would be best.
when you first start the bead at the top a puddle will form, and when you're ready to start moving downhill you need to "jump" over that puddle and get ahead of it to keep the bead from running away from you. i used to gradually move on down a joint and chase the bead 'cause it was running away from me...but i figured out that i can control that dripping action by jumping ahead of that initial puddle i made upon first starting the bead.
Parent - By stich585 (*) Date 08-14-2002 02:20
I agree. If done properly down hill would look very nice. But if this is not an option, Try switching to a dual shield wire like 71 M. It seems to solidify faster and I have always had better luck with it.
P.S. only run the solid wire down hill. Don't do it with any kind of flux cored wire.
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 08-14-2002 04:17
Try s3 wire it's supposed to be a little less fluid in the puddle.

There isn't a lot of reason to go up with solid wire. If your stuff is reasonably clean there should be virtually no slag- hence nothing to bury. Don't let the metal get in front of you as the poster above says- it leads to bad fusion. We weld this same sort of tubing (in roll-off dumpsters which I assure you are not gently treated by their users). We weld down and they don't come back broken (not the welds anyway).

Bill
Parent - - By Seldom (**) Date 08-14-2002 20:10
I would advise that your 11 ga., corner joint should be a single pass, vertical-down not vertical-up. With a 0-1/16” root opening, try 15 volts, 105 amps with .035 wire. It is imperative that you have a fast enough travel speed to not let then puddle roll over the leading edge of the puddle but slow enough to achieve adequate fusion.

Your type of light-ga. application is what instigated and perpetuated the development of GMAW originally!
Parent - - By Goose (**) Date 08-14-2002 20:33
Thanks to all who replied thus far. This has been a big help. I'm kinda surprised you mention turning the voltage (and proportional wire speed) down on vertical welds. I would have thought you should keep the heat up to ensure adequate penetration.

If I'm reading this right, the lower voltage/wire speed will make the arc/puddle more controllable in the vert down position? And I assume I need to make a few passes on test pieces to establish the correct hand travel rate to stay ahead of the puddle?

I've got planty of scrap...just need to break out the chop saw and tack some stuff together. If I cut some of these test welds in half, would I expect to see 100% penetration in a inside corner joint of the obove specified thickness (I would think so)?

Sorry for dragging this topic on so long. Most of my previous welding has been on automotive sheetmetal restoration/repair. This is my first "structural" project with the new large Miller Mig, so I need to kinda re-learn my techniques and adjust them to the thicker materials.

thanks fellas
Todd G
http://www.malibumotorsports.cjb.net
Parent - - By Seldom (**) Date 08-14-2002 23:51
The faster your travel speed the better chance of full penetration and fusion only if you stay on the leading edge of the puddle. A note of caution, it’s very easy with GMAW to slow down and still see push-through (mock penetration) if you have a root opening but that can fool you because there may be no fusion. The molten puddle can literally ooze through and look as if you’ve achieved full penetration when in reality, you’ve only masked cold-lap (lack of fusion). It’s been my experience that as little as a 1/16” difference in the wire’s position from the leading edge of the puddle will take you outside the margin of error.

To help you gain confidence, run a few simple mock-up fillet (inside corner joint) test welds and break them. Use two pieces of your plate and make a “T”. Give yourself a little root opening (gap) between the two just as you would with the actual work and single-pass weld only one side of the “T”. Take a sledgehammer and break the “T” over onto itself and take a look at your penetration and sidewall fusion. Did you penetrate into that little gap? Did you pull any base metal in the break (good) or did the weld metal come away smooth from the sidewall (bad)? It’s a pretty simple but very effective proof test with the GMAW-SC process. I’ve actually tossed a completed 3/8” fillet weld test (multiple 2G) on the concrete floor and had it break into two pieces because of lack of fusion (smooth sidewall) and the welder actually did ooze the root in. Looked great but was absolutely worthless and didn’t have to use the test press!
Parent - By oldkid (*) Date 08-15-2002 02:17
Where I work we do quite a bit of "Downhill" welding and I see a tremendous amount of the "False penetration" where the filler has just oozed into the gap and it looks like you have full penetration but you sure dont when you break it! I see most people making the mistake of going too slow thinking the longer they stay in one place the more penetration they will get. Doesnt seem to be that way though. I find you need to keep up a pretty good travel speed to stay on the edge of the puddle. Once your wire gets passed by the molten metal, penetration seems to go to pot. You are on the right track, practice, practice, practice and then break them to see the true story. Good luck
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / vertical Mig...need help

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