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- - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-02-2010 21:24
I've been offered a job, well, bidding a job and this is what it involves.

On a very wide sidewalk there are 3 large 1/2" steel plates. Each is 76" wide, 96" long. They are covering and old elevator shaft that ran down to the basement. The elevator is long gone and the guy just wants to seal the plates so they don't leak water into the elevator shaft....which leads to his mechanical room, thus forming a new fishing pond each time it rains hard. The outer edges of the plates have concrete right up to the edges so wiggling or moving around to close the large gaps at the top is out of the picture.

If you look at my drawing you'll see what I mean. The fella said, " just need it welded up to keep rain out, grind it off and paint it". Aside from the at least 3/4" gap at the top and no gap at the bottom I really don't see to much of a problem....unless somebody comes along and decides they want to remove this plate thinking it's just one huge plate. and then the simple "seal the seams" welds break and it falls into three pieces. He said he would be there to let people know but heck, he might be gone tomorrow and nobody would know then.

What I'm thinking is the best way is to cut out the ends with no gap and open them up to where I have a 1/8" gap, bevel both edges the full 8 foot and then slip a piece of 2" x 1/4" flat bar under there and weld a 7018 root pass of some sort working around the huge gap at the top and then running standard roots where the gap narrows. The I figured I'd run 5/32 7024 the rest of the way out in order to speed up the process and move things along. If I wouldn't give my machine a heart attack I'd run 3/16 7024 but think my little ranger would probably roll over and die after 8 hours of that stuff!

There is just foot traffic and probably not that much on this particular spot because it's right up against the building and the sidewalk is probably 20 feet wide so folks seem to stick to the concrete and it's not a huge place like NYC or something that will have 100's of people standing or walking on it at once but I'm having a hard wrapping myself around the idea to just weld it enough to seal the crack.

Any thoughts on this? I'm thinking the second idea is best. A one man operation, me, could 16 feet x 1/2" thick be welded in a 10 hour day? Figuring the bevels were cut, backing strip was in? Probably be better to do a 5/32 7018 for the root now that I think about it, just to move that along and fill quicker.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-02-2010 21:46
IMHO you are trying to overthink and overwork the job. 

If you really think there is a liability factor tell them to get an engineers stamp of approval on a contract document before you bid it or weld it.

Either way, I don't see where the amount of work and weld you are talking about is warranted for the job.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-02-2010 22:29
Thanks Brent, you may be right. Sometimes I may over cover my azz!! LOL!
Parent - - By burleigh26 (**) Date 07-02-2010 23:05
hey cummings, im the sameway i like to cover my butt.  brent has a good deal, if your not sure, get a engineer stamp it. then its on him not you.  just me, something like that i would bevel, backing plate,  run 3/16 5p on first pass and LH it, 3/16 or what you fill good with running.  the main thing to know is if they run heavy equip. over it, which you said its low traffic.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-02-2010 23:15
There won't be any type of vehicle, equipment traffic, pretty much folks walking but like I said it's way up against the building, off the beaten path sort of speak.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 07-02-2010 22:52
I would just fill up the gap with flat stock or rebar, seal weld it to the plates then put two passes of jet over it and call it good. You would not need to grind the weld down as the jet will put on a nice flat bead.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-02-2010 23:18
That's why I picked the jet rod, nice pirty beads! LoL!
Parent - - By kkfabricator (**) Date 07-03-2010 00:46
if you are concerned about the stregnth than why not back it with a peice of 4X4X1/4 angle to reinforce it instead of flat stock?
Parent - By joe pirie (***) Date 07-03-2010 15:08
whats wrong with innershield wire way faster than any stick rod?
Parent - - By NWPAwelder (**) Date 07-03-2010 16:39
In my experiences, a 5/32 jet rod is going to be about the most that your ranger is going to want. I ran quite a bit of it with a ranger 8 for a few days and found that even a "low hours" machine would get pretty warm and start dropping the arc a bit unless you gave the machine a chance to rest every so often and cool down. Gotta remember that it takes a lot of amperage to run them and thus taxing the machine. Better to be safe than sorry and buying a new machine.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-04-2010 04:47
yeah, I've got plans to get something with a bit more grunt and have the shorthood in the shop but have grown to like my auxillary power for running tools so the shorthood is out and buying something new is probably a miller big blue 300 or Vantage but need to have more work lined up. Truck is paid off in March so might be the time to step into something new. Can't complain about my ranger 8 though, pulled 16 hour days with her and starts everytime, welds good but also understand in order to show up on "Big" jobs and not get laughed off the site I need a real machine LoL!!
Parent - - By A_DAB_will_do (*) Date 07-04-2010 12:13
First thing I thought after looking over your post, "Why is there a 3/4" gap on both joints at the top, and 0 gap at the bottom?"  Is the hole not square, or are the plates not square? 

If the plates are not square, but reasonably flat, can you flip one over,or turn it around, and then jimmy them around to even out the gaps?  Then you could bevel both sides and weld the joint as an open root.  Saves having to get something in behind the joint to use as a backing bar.

If the hole isn't square, then a backing bar or strip seems like the way to go. 

I don't envy you having to slip a strip behind thoseplates, inside the shaft, and hold it in place until you can tack it down.  In your shoes I'd give some thought to what's involved in moving around those plates.  Are they sitting on a small lip?  Is there any risk of them dropping down the shaft while using prybars to shift them around?  What about dropping the backing bar down the shaft?  While it sounds like the risk to life and property is small, it sure would be embarrassing and a waste of time if you have to fetch a backing bar from the bottom of the shaft.  Dropping a plate down that hole is a much, much bigger problem.  Might be worth welding some temporary tabs on the top of the plates to ensure that there's no way to drop them down the shaft while you're shifting them around.

Your 3/4" root in 1/2" plate, with a ~30° bevel on both sides equals a joint area of .61", give or take, at the widest point.  I'd guess that the joint cross sectional area is half that at the narrow end.  Average area is (.61+.3)/2 = .46 in2.  .46in2 times 16 feet(192") = 88 in3.  This is the volume of weld for the two joints joining the 3 plates together.  Density of steel is .284 lbs/in3 times 88 in3 = 25 lbs of weld deposit.  You'll need about 36lbs of rod, assuming 30% stub loss.  Deposition rate for 3/16" E7024 is about 7.5lbs per hour.  So it will take you at least 5 hours just to weld these joints out.  And that makes no allowance for chipping, grinding, or stopping to do anything else.  I'd double this time to allow for all the other things you'll need to do besides weld.

None of that quick calc does not cover seal welding the edges of the hole, shifting the plates into position, installing backing bars(if used), or beveling the joints.  I'd put some kind of bevel, not completely through the joint, but just a shallow groove, all the way around the perimeter of the plates.  Better penetration and a flatter finished bead....

In your shoes I'd plan on spending at least 2 days, probably 3 on this job if you're working alone and stickwelding the whole thing.  Renting a wire feeder and running a gas shielded flux cored wire will cut your welding time a whole bunch...

Hope this helps.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-04-2010 15:02
Think I might need to see what they want, the guy that explained it to me is the a/c mechanical room guy so knowing this I know neither of us are engineers and as it was mentioned if the engineer stamps the "seal weld" then ok.

As far as the lip around the edge goes on the building side I know there is a 4" lip the plate sits on, the other 3 sides not so certain as I can't see them. They did get a bid from a large mechanical company and they said it was way to high. I planned on a 50lb'r of jet for this, plus that's the only size the guys at the lws said it came in. Might have to check on a mig cost, that would make short work of that job for certain!

Thanks again for all the input! Very much appreciated!

Shawn
Parent - - By hillbilly (**) Date 07-04-2010 18:24
I've got the SA and and a 220 wire feeder if it'll help. We can work out the rental fees for some mechanical work. Haha
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 07-04-2010 19:32
butt the two plates togather to close the gap, give it a slight bevel for better penatration. As long as the plates cover the hole with some overhang of course. Other than that I would just seal weld it as asked by the customer. If not possible to close the gap just put a peice of 2" x 1/4" flat bar and seal weld it. Remeber the edges of the hole supports the plate like grating on a catwalk, being only foot traffic shouldn't be a problem.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-05-2010 05:05
I'm back and forth but figure that's how he wants it so that's what he should get, just seal it and collect my check. I planned on gouging the tight gap to get into the plate a little and then fill it back. Been awhile since I've run jet....10-12 years actually! I've got some 1/2" solid square bar here at the house, actually coming out the ying yang so figured that would make an excellent filler material for the large gap. The plates are not gonna wiggle, I can't believe how tight around the edges the concrete is.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 07-05-2010 05:10
What kind of mechanical work? Borrow that sa from ya and I might not get it back to ya!! LoL!!!
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-04-2010 20:54
Jet Rod is faster than Mig, Anyone who says it isn't needs lessons on how to run them
Parent - - By tompit9 (***) Date 07-05-2010 00:28
I'd like to take some lesson from ya Cactus and i'm not saying the mig is faster. And by the way r u keeping "LIGHTPOLE" away from the light poles? LOL, Thats is stuck in my head for good.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-05-2010 00:34
Im tyrin to keep him lined out ! That is a Job in itself
Parent - By tompit9 (***) Date 07-05-2010 01:06
lmao! I bet!!!! good luck.
Parent - By combofieldhand (*) Date 07-05-2010 01:56
I'd take jet rod over mig any day of the week. Heck, I'd take it over flux-cored almost
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 07-05-2010 23:47
Shawn

If you do not have a signed and sealed drawing for this job, do not do anything with it!  Intuitively, I feel that 1/2 inch plate is too light for this span.  There will also be automobile/ snowplow / forklift traffic on this plate. 

If you try to CJP weld those plates they will warp and be unsuitable even for pedestrian traffic.  Even if you can establish that only pedestrian traffic will be on this plate, it should be raised tread plate.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-06-2010 00:49
Joseph P. Kane. Do you EVER get a Job done ? I have never seen you post anything except all the reasons you can't or shouldn't do something ! Ever Major City in the US (at least the Southern States) use 1/2 inch plate to cover holes on Sidewalks as well as in the middle of the street.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 07-06-2010 13:18
Cactus

You're full of it.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 07-06-2010 14:45
WELL...................the profile DOES list inspector, consultant, welder.........................It's easy for a guy like you to over-think a simple job.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-06-2010 20:21
Well, Slap me silly for not reading the profile! SHAME ON ME ! It says LONG ISLAND NY.    No explanation needed ! I should have known.
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 07-06-2010 22:45 Edited 07-06-2010 23:29
Cactus...... If we lived there we would probably be the same way... My brother lived in Boston for a few years.... He had the building department show up at his apartment and fine him for changing out the toilet in his own apartment because he wasn't a licensed plumber and didn't get a permit ...  They threw a major fit over the whole deal... I will just stay here in Texas and let them call us Redneck or any other name as long as they stay OVER there..!!!!

   I don't know how they get anything done back East... They give us heck because they think we do crappy work... Just look at the " Big Dig" They did in Boston... The thing is falling apart and hurting people....  And that's with all the regulation they can think of to put on a guy...

    Cumminsguy.... Im sure you are a sharp guy... Go with your gut...!!!  If you think the plates will hold up and you have "NO" problem sleeping at night doing the job... Jump on it..!!!   I don't know if your hole isn't square or why you are fighting the big gaps but there seems to be some good Ideas here on how to go about filling the gap...  If I had the option I might try cutting off 3/8 to nothing of each plate on the small gap side to make the plates butt up better...  I don't know if that would work but its a thought...

  1/2 inch plate is Tough..!!!!  It may bend but in order to get it to fail you really have to load it up... How much of a lip is it resting on..???  Can you punch holes through the plate and bolt it to the concrete..??   That may help to keep it from flexing too...

  Good luck.. I hope you get the job..!!

  RC
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 07-06-2010 22:50
Cactus

Let me reiterate.  You're so full of it your eyes are brown!

Joe Kane
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-07-2010 01:37 Edited 07-07-2010 01:45
Your right !!!!! They are Brown.   Damn........... Now I have another Stalker !!!  BTW.. YOU are the one who told a Retired Law Enforcement Officer of 20+ years, That it was Illegal to move a trailer hitch !!!!!   And you say I am full of it ?

Quote........ "I believe that re-locating the ball hitch behind the axle without proper engineering back-up is illegal"

I can see it now......... Please Stay Tuned for "Joseph P. Kane, The Welders Lawyer"  On this channel, right after Jerry Springer!  Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-12-2010 14:02
Lawyer... Joe Kane.... Naah

Expert witness in high profile weld falure law suits...  Many times over.

Has Joe seen up close and personal; death and damage related to poor procedures?.... Oh yes.

Little projects like the twin towers and their replacement...  He's been there too.

Stalking Cactus?...  Naaa...  Joe just pipes up when there is bad advice...  If he chimes in on your posts more than others, you go ahead and figure out what that means.

Without Joe Kane's efforts, both volunteer and professional.. The standards for welding and inspection in the United States would be lower than they currently are.  He is a guy that has made a national impact on our industry.

When Joe Kane talks about welding... Only a fool ignores him.
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-12-2010 14:19
Lawrence, I also have a Nationally recognized Engineer and Inspector with whom I check everything through. His name is Dr. Lee Guise with Guise Engineering Sciences.  He is one of the most recognized Engineers and Inspectors in the Drill Rig Industry ANYWHERE in the World. He is also a Designer of Rigs. He has the ability to figure out VERY complex formulas and problems. He also has the ability NOT to overthink a simple job.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 07-13-2010 02:50
Cactus

I  know that this is a late reply.

Before you continue to rant about modifications to trailers, hitches and truck bodies, you should read Title 49 USC, the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards)
The TTMA (Truck Trailer Manufacturers Association) Recommended Practices, circulars Etc, and  the individual Vehicle Manufacturers body building manuals, ETC.

When a person alters some components on a street legal commercial vehicle, many times, they are required by law to affirm that the vehicle still complies with the applicable portions of Title 49 USC. 

Many welder / fabricators are surprised to find out that they are de-facto manufacturers by virtue of the work they do.  I used to do all kinds of alterations and even made some trailers, that were registered and given a DMV safety sticker.  Now, in my original post, I used the words ..."may" be illegal...  I used to make "Bomb Proof" pintle mount hitches for dump trucks hauling heavy equipment on tag-along trailers.  I made them strong enough to be able to lift the whole truck off the ground, and all my customers agreed that the hitch plate was strong enough to withstand any jack knife situation without damage to the hitch plate.  I never had any engineering sign off.  I used good intuition.  BUT- I didn't know about "Rear Under-ride Protection" requirements.  I was lucky, nobody ever ran into a dump truck with one of my hitch plates.  Years later, while working as a consultant for a Lawyer representing a drunk driver who ran into the back of a parked dump truck, I got a real education on the requirements for rear under ride protection. 

Over the years, I have been shocked to learn that many of the things that I have fabricated did not comply with federal regulations.  None of them were bad fabrications, but I did not comply with the applicable destructive testing requirements, engineering certifications and FMVSS requirements.   In addition, I never did comply with 49 USC part 567.  

Now, I never knew anyone to get in trouble with my alterations, but when I went to get my NYC Haz-Mat vehicle license for my own welding truck,  I was lucky that I didn't have any bottles on board that day.  The FDNY Safety inspector, Mr. Grady Caviness, knew all the rules and gave me a real brief education on some of the violations on my altered truck.  Now, the truck had been inspected in several traffic stops before this, and I never got a ticket.  I was just lucky.  Those cops just did not know the regulations.

If you get involved with a personal injury vehicle accident in a HAZ-MAT carrying vehicle, more knowledgeable law enforcement personnel become involved.  That is why I warn people about vehicle modification.

Joe Kane
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-13-2010 03:04
The Key Words in the Entire post is.. "street legal commercial vehicle". I live in Texas. Welding Trucks are not Commercial Vehicles. Some guys CHOOSE to plate them That way. They are not required to. My Truck is considered and Plated as a Personnal Pick Up Truck. It Does have a Welding Bed. My Plates are registered to Haul 25k WITHOUT a Trailer. My 40" Gooseneck has Regular Plates. It is Liscensed to Haul 40k. It is also Non- Commercial. So according to your own Post, Title 49 USC does not apply to Welding Trucks in this State. I can Understand NYC being that way. It is like it's own Little world all by its self.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-13-2010 05:52
"It is like it's own Little world all by its self. "

Said the Texan..   :)
Parent - - By Northweldor (***) Date 07-13-2010 12:27
Cactus:

Why is what you just said (in the above post) relevant? (other than to prove Texas license laws are full of loopholes?)
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-13-2010 12:41
It shows just another good reason to live in Texas ! Loophole or not, Its the Law
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 07-13-2010 14:07
Cactuswelder

The ability to register you welding truck with the Texas DMV as a non-commercial vehicle, is immaterial to the US DOT regulations.   I used the words "...street legal commercial vehicle..." just to differentiate from strictly off road vehicles.  Any vehicle used in furtherance of commerce becomes a commercial vehicle.  In my home township, there was a serious accident once, involving a 4 door sedan POV, which became involved with the DOT because he was transporting radioactive sources for medical establishments.  His particular job involved driving around to doctors offices and clinics, and replacing the spent radioactive medical sources.  He did it with an automobile to save gas and the hassle of owning a placarded commercial vehicle.   So,do not confuse the DMV, with the DOT or the Texas Railway Commission, and local jurisdictional entities.

Title 49 USC covers the FEDERAL rules for all kinds of vehicle manufacture, completion and alteration(Commercial and non-commercial).  FMVSS cover everything about a vehicle, including brakes, braking performance, stability,  bumpers, rear under ride protection,  tail lights, air bags, dashboard, springs, lighting, tires and tire performance, Steering, loading and labeling.   Just go on line and read some of the FMVSS to get an idea.  Then read some of the testing requirements. 

As for NYC, the only equipment rule that they have which is not found in the Federal Regulations applicable to all vehicles, is the special signage rules required to get a license to work with that vehicle in the 5 Buroughs (Counties) of NYC.  They do have a very detailed vehicle inspection requirement to obtain a license on the individual vehicle, and those inspections are conducted by very competent fire inspectors, who know all the Federal Rules.   There is more to it, than NYC being in it's own "Little world".

If you bought a cab and chassis only (or removed the manufacturer supplied bed from your pick-up), and made your own rig bed for it, you become a manufacturer and are obligated to perform some or all of the tests required in 49 USC.  Now, some "Body Building" (the emphasis is mine) can be covered by complying with the prime vehicle manufacturers recommendations, that they publish for after market body manufacturers / fabricators (some of which may be found on line).  Sometimes something a simple as drilling a hole in a vehicle frame, is enough to put you out of the scope of the 49USC test parameters already tested by the prime manufacturer, (I. E., Ford, Dodge, GM, Mack, Volvo, ETC.), and require some or all new testing per 49 USC.

So, even though (Timbrens????, or any other after-market component supplier,) may manufacture an after market component that enables you to move the fifth wheel back over or even behind the rear axle, that movement may cause the load on the front axle to be lighter and reduce braking performance or even steering stability.   New labeling per 49 USC Part 567.4 may be required. 

Unless you seek proper engineering assistance and know all the testing required by Title 49 USC, YOU do not know!   I do not know! 

My purpose in replying to the original post is to caution the original poster that he was getting a lot of incomplete and improper advice advice, that could expose him to civil and possibly criminal liability.   These days, with a little steering, a reasonable and prudent person can go on line and find out many things that were not so available back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Joe Kane
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 07-15-2010 02:14 Edited 07-15-2010 02:23
My goodness this is sad... I know there are reasons for all of these laws and regulations but holy cow... You cant do anything... I came up with a REALLY cool invention last year... After a ton of money for a patent search then applying for a US patent with all the Attorney fees and all the work and cost that getting a patent requires I wind up running into another Attorney that told me if I got my product to market I could face serious Law suits.... If my product was used in a way that it was Not designed for it COULD in theory kill someone....

   So now Im on hold taking my product to market.... I use it everyday and it works great..!!!!  It solves a problem yet Im too afraid the wrong person will kill themselves then Im in a major pickle....

   It sure is hard for a guy to get ahead due to all the ( I'm going to sue you people out there )

  Almost anything will kill you if it is used for something in which it was not designed for or abused.... Sad  Sad..!!!!

   If these plates that are being welded together were only intended for Foot traffic... Paint a big Yellow caution stripe down it clearly stating.... For foot traffic only..!!!  And if some dummy drove a loaded fork lift on it and it killed him.... Well than... Here's your Sign..!!!!

     RC
- - By joe pirie (***) Date 07-05-2010 13:32
if jet rod is so fast why arent all the structural shops  running it say on there fillet welds on stiffner plates.
could be the lack of penetration? no way is any stick rod faster than wire in a production enviroment
Parent - - By combofieldhand (*) Date 07-05-2010 15:19
well, in a shop. Where production is constantly bird dogged. I agree that a squirt gun is faster, where there are welding positioners, no wind, etc. I've ran flux in the field and yes it is faster than stick, don't get me wrong. But, when the wind is 20 mph, and the dust is blowing in your face, and if on a night shift crew, the bugs are crawling down your back, and you've just about f*&cking had it, I would rather run something that I know can hold some wind, penetrate good and wont bug hole or turkey track for no damn reason. And on another note, I don't run flux in position because it doesnt look near as good as being used in a set of rolls where you can slick it on. As for me, maybe not others, stick is affordable, portable and realiable. mig and flux is to much of a headache for me. But this is just my two cents.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-05-2010 15:26
You also have to remember that Jet rod is only good in FLAT Position. So in a Production shop it would not work as well. However, I will put a 7024 against a MIG or Flux core wire any day under the right circumstance, I will constantly get a Faster weld with a higher deposition rate.
Parent - - By combofieldhand (*) Date 07-05-2010 17:57
I agree with you. I had to build these frames once, out of 2" angle iron, maybe 3' long and what not, I used jet rod and just flipped the frames around, welding everything flat. The welds came out pretty slick compared to the mig welds.
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-05-2010 19:00
Sorry, I was referring to Joe's post about there being NO WAY stick was faster than Mig
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-05-2010 21:34
Cactus,

I haven't run any speed trials lately and I know it also can make a difference who is running the two processes.  I used to work with a guy that I could weld circles around no matter who had which machine.  He on wire, me on stick, I'd get more.  Switch units, I'd still get more. 

My main question in this particular part of the discussion is what GMAW process are you talking about?  Short Circuit, or Spray Transfer?  Not a discussion about rather Short arc is D1.1 or not.  Just wondering which one we are comparing.  Mainly because with .045 or larger wires on good hot Spray Transfer settings, I can sure lay down a lot of weld in short order.  And not stop as often as the average guy having to change electrodes and clean his weld.

Now, notice several disclaimers here (average guy, clean welds, etc) and I am not at all refuting your claim.  Just want to make sure we are keeping all the playing field even.

To Cummingsguy,

I still think it wise to get an engineers' opinion and stamp.  If there is foot traffic then there is liability.  Even with no major loads, once he/you welds this it is his/your liability and responsibility.  Ultimately though, if it is already supporting the load, and all they have asked for is to seal it off, why would you want to bevel and put in much more material than is probably required to accomplish the task?  You could easily pay the engineer yourself off the amount you would save in time and materials between bevel weld vs seal weld with some filler material to fill the existing gaps before welding.

Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-05-2010 21:44 Edited 07-05-2010 21:56
Brent,
I am Comparing a 7024 Jet Rod to ANY other process. A 7024, When it is set right, will clean its self. It doesnt matter the process used against it, I believe a 7024 will beat wire, ANY WIRE, every time. (In the right Circumstance) With speed and deposition rate. You get bigger wire, I get bigger rod, Example, I dont believe there is anyway that you can get the depostion on any wire capable of being run on a gas drive machine. I run 1/16 Esab Coresheild 8 all the time. I also run 3/16 and 7/32 7024 Jet all the time. NO WAY the wire can keep up. The wire has to be worked and manipulated to get a Good, Smooth, Wide pass. The 7024, Just light it up and the Rod will do the rest. This is another case where things are being figured with to much Overkill. The weld he is trying to make is to keep the plate from leaking it is not supporting a load. Why is an Engineer needed to stop Rain for getting through a crack ?  That 8' Weld can be made in less than an Hour. You also need to take into account that this is a Field repair. It does not make sense to me to haul a Bottle of Gas and a Feeder too a Jobsite, Set it all up, Hope the wind is not blowing so I can Spray a weld. Besides Spray doesn't work very god unless the Fit is VERY GOOD. Like I said. I feel like a Jet will out weld ANY wire process. My Opinion
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-05-2010 22:14
Cactus,

Don't take me wrong.  I agree with your points, especially field welding this particular project.  I was just asking so as to eliminate any questions and make sure all parties in this little side discussion were considering all aspects of the comparison.

And the only reason I have suggested the engineer for cummingsguy is there are too many unknowns as to exactly what type of lip, load requirements in his jurisdiction and this application, cross supports, and other questions I would have if it were my job.  This is the SAFE way to proceed.

And I was the first one to tell him I thought he was trying to overthink and overwork the job.  FROM HIS DESCRIPTION I agree, he does not need to worry about a LOAD.  Not with 1/2" plate over a hole that has already been in use for some time.

But when someone asks me/us for advice and we don't have ALL the facts, prudence would dictate CAUTION in how we answer. 

Again, I wasn't challenging you Cactus.  And your answer covers all the bases as to how one could run a speed comparison if they wanted to.  My area of AZ is about as windy as they come.  I think they called the wrong place 'The Windy City'.  Our high desert winds caused by the thermals from the lower elevation temps in Phoenix, Las Vegas, and other points around us make our winds between 10-20 mph on a regular daily basis with gusts of 30-40 being regular occurances.  Try welding with gas shielded processes outdoors in that.  Stick is usually your only field welding option here.  And those are just the averages.  We get many days higher. 

Thanks for your response Cactus.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 07-05-2010 22:33
I couldn't agree more. As for Arizona, I spent alot of time around Lake Havasu and Parker a few years ago. I got the Nickname Cactus, there in Havasu. My Wife told me today that it was "Just to hot" here where we live in Texas. I ask her "So, does that mean you are thinking about Moving ?" She Said "Yes" I ask her, to where ? She Said "ARIZONA" ! I Rolled Laughing ! She has never been there and thought it was cooler ! Boy was she mistaken !
Parent - By nevadanick (**) Date 07-06-2010 02:38
theres no way the wire can keep up IF YOU ARE WELDING FLAT.  Coreshield 8 is made for HIGH DEPOSITION, OUT of POSITION welds, and works awsome for it.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-06-2010 02:47
At the auto frame plant We built some heavy plate weldments for tooling parts. In the old days [through the '70s] they used iron powder rods, might have been 6024 0r 7024.
In the 80s & 90s they used CO2 globular transfer wire feed, and poured the coals to it.

I don't know which was faster, as any welding job in the tool & die building lasted as long as the welder made it last, or got done as fast as He could do it, depending on who the welder was, and His mood at the time.

Us tool & die makers didn't now any better, so We put 1" x 45 degree weld chamfers on each side, and left them fill it up.

When finished, the job looked like somebody spilled a bag of shot on it. Some of those globs, about 1/8"+ diameter were stuck on really good. An air chissel or cold chissel cleaned them off, and after stress relief at 1400f and shot blasting, they looked pretty good.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need suggestions for welding LARGE plates together
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