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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Spot Welds Special Requirement
- - By Inok Date 07-05-2010 10:35
Hi,

I would like to know if there are special requirement for the spot welds used to save holding, lifting and transport beam cages. The welds are not intended to be structural, or transfer any force and just used to join non critical components together. I’m not familiarizing with the American Welding Code, especially with reinforcement steel, and I'd appreciate it if you could refer to me a technical references.

Best regards,

Inok
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-07-2010 03:01
What you are proposing is one of the worst things you can do to concrete reinforcing bars (rebar), i.e., small welds, that do not actually transmit a load.

What I typically see  are "tack" welds that are made without the use (or consideration) of preheat accompanied by arc strikes everywhere.

Rather than writing a long complicated explanation of the potential problems, simply try this experiment. Cut two pieces of rebar to about 12 to 18 inches in length. Make a small weld (about the size you expect to see in production) on one of the rebars and leave the other rebar in the as received state. Bend each rebar around a mandrel that is 4 times the diameter of the rebar. The bend on the welded rebar should be such that the weld is centered on the outside of the bend radius. Bend the rebars a full 180 degrees to make a "perfect" horseshoe. Compare the results of the welded piece and the unwelded piece.

You can simulate the affects of an arc strike by dragging the welding rod across the rebar to simulate a typical arc strike. Bend this sample the same way as the previous samples and compare the results. (This sounds like J. Wright’s experiment doesn’t it.)

Please let us know what the results of the three experiments are.

You can use lengths of pipe slipped over the ends of the bars to make it easier to wrap the rebar around the mandrel or you can get fancy and rig up a bending die in a hydraulic press. The best method is dependent on the diameter of the rebar.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Inok Date 07-07-2010 15:42
Hi Al,

Thank you for reply to my question. I work for a construction system company, which main activity is the supply and on-site assembly of reinforcement for concrete structures, and we use the Europe Welding Code so I never have worked with any American Standards. The experiments that you suggest to me are well known to us, and we had already done some of them. I`ve been reading the AWS D1.1/D1.1M:2008 which contain the requirement for welding processes, and I’d like to know if the tack welding and welding crossing bars are the same terms. What kind of welding process is commonly used to make tack welds? Does this welding process adversely affect the mechanical properties of the rebar at the point of welding?

Best regards - Inok
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-07-2010 16:24
That is the point of the experiments. Not all concrete reinforcing bars (rebar) are weldable. Even when the rebar that is considered weldable, due consideration must be given to their carbon equivalency, the need for preheat, proper selection of filler metal, etc.

I do not recommend "tack" welding the rebar. The tendency is to omit the preheat, welders use incompatable filler metal, they fail to follow low hydrogen welding practices, they use improper techniques, they ignor the  required weld sizes (any weld has to transmit some loads especially when the cages are move and banged and generally mistreated), and they ignor the applicable acceptance standards, i.e.,  undercut, etc. I should retract my comments regarding the welders, they are often blamed when in fact they simply follow the directions provided by management and supervision. Therein lies the real problem, engineers, managers, and supervision that have little appreciation or understanding of welding and weld related problems (thank the Lord for that, they are the reason for my existence). The results is usually less than what was expected and someone is usually injured in the process. Rebar is meant to be secured using "tie wire". It is a tried and true method, it works, and there is no danger of damaging the rebar.

You can refer to AWS D1.4 for welding concrete reinforcing steel.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Inok Date 07-08-2010 10:25
Hi,

I completely agree with you about the use of ``tie wire´´. In fact, we use 16 gauge rebar tie wire, but I’d like to convey my situation. I’ve to ensure safe handling, lifting, and transport cages which weights are more or less 2 Ton, and I think the tie wire isn’t suitable in this case. I going to use A615 rebar in the cages assemblies. I don’t know if the AWS allows welding A615 rebar, and I can’t see when weldability wouldn’t be important when it's used in a non-structural connection. There are tie-rod welding details for A615?

Thanks for any information and/or advice.

Best regards-Inok
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-08-2010 15:09
Simply from your description of the application, it is a structural application. You are concerned that the wire ties might not hold up to the abuse of the handling, i.e., the structural loads due to the twisting and bending might part the ties.

ASTM A615 is not prequalified if my memory serves me correctly. That means the welding procedure will have to be qualified by testing. While I have a copy of the welding code in my office, it is not at my fingertips, and I am ready to leave the office for a meeting.

The nature of the loads while picking and moving the rebar cage places the welded joints in either tension or compression. The length of the welds are rather short and the unit stresses very high as a result. The failure modes will be cracking transverse to the rebar or shear through the weld.

Consider a vertical bar, which will be the member to which the hoisting gear will be attached, directly or indirectly. A cross bar is welded to the vertical bar and weights are attached to the horizontal cross bar. The horizontal bar is bent downward due to gravity loads imposed by the weights (the weights would be the weight of the numerous rebars making up the cage). If the weight is distributed evenly so there is no eccentricity, the bar is subject to tensile and bending forces. Due to the high hardness of the HAZ, there is a high probability of the existence of an unfilled crater, some undercut, etc.; a transverse crack across the rebar can easily develop. If the load is greater on one side of the vertical bar than the other is, shear forces can cause the welds to shear. Remember that the welds are very short, most likely undersized, with a very hard HAZ with little ductility thereby allowing little elongation or plastic deformation to redistribute the loads.

As the cage is lifted, the horizontal bars deflect thereby imposing a bending moment on the welds and a twisting or torque load on individual welds. The attached sketch may depict the nature of the loads better than I can describe them in text.

The use of wire ties allows the rebars to deflect, twist, and move. They do little to increase rigidity, as would the welds. At the risk of sounding like a heretic, more ties or larger tie wire would be the better solution in my opinion.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 07-08-2010 15:32
How big is the bar???   I have seen HUGE cages of #8 and bigger bar; tied 100% lifted and placed  ( way over 2 ton)  Proper spreader bar is the key.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-10-2010 03:56
If you don't get the answer you want to hear you can always ask again and again until you do get the answer you want to hear. Sooner or later someone will say exactly what you want to hear.

"Mommy, mommy, can I put this fork into the electric socket?"

"No Johnny, you'll get electrocuted!"

"Jane, Jane, can I put this fork into the electric socket?"

"No Johnny, you'll get hurt!"

"Daddy, daddy, can I put this fork into the electric socket?"

"No Johnny, you'll get the shock of your life."

"Hey mister, can I put this fork into the electric socket?"

"Sure kid! Can I watch while you do it?"

Best regards -Al
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-10-2010 21:29
Inok,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that your rebar cage is "NOT STRUCTURAL"?! 

If it is in a patio, shop floor, home, high rise building, bridge column, bridge span, etc it is part of a 'Structural' assymbly that must be done, handled, prepared, fabricated, a certain way to ensure it's proper strength and lack of failure. 

AWS D1.4 covers MANY different rebar classifications.  As Al, I don't have mine in front of me right now.  I can't state the weldability of 615. 

For my two tin pennies worth,  WELDING IS NOT ALWAYS THE ANSWER.  And it would really need special care in this situation.  Al has well stated many reasons.  And just because you can make something 'STICK' together doesn't mean you haven't actually done more harm than good. 

If you are going to INSIST on welding the rebar,  Get into a copy of D1.4 and find out the best procedure.  Get it tested if required to make sure of the end quality.  Then follow ALL procedure standards. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Spot Welds Special Requirement

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