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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / General Arc Welding Spec
- - By jakeman7676 Date 07-19-2010 19:44
Hello all, I am in need of a general spec for arc welding low alloy carbon steel. Any type of standard will be ok, not necessarily AWS. Any help in finding this is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jake
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 07-19-2010 20:38
Youre request is maybe to vague….

If by spec…. you mean a Welding Procedure Specification, that maybe comparable to asking some for their wallet. Or to borrow their toolbox.

WPS’s are developed through specific process’s that cost the developer and there for that person or company’s privet property.

If you need advise on how to best weld something, gives us an idea what you are trying to do and maybe we cab help. Bare in mind there is a lot of responsibility comes with giving advice to do something that could put someone in harms way.
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 07-20-2010 09:37
jakeman7676
Welcome to the Forum.
As Ron has mentioned the question is vague.
If you just want to take the short cut for a standard Welding Proceure contact AWS they have some for sale.
http://files.aws.org/catalogs/aws_cat-2010.pdf
On pages 14 and 15 of the pdf are lists of different Standard Welding Procedure Specifications (SWPSs) 
The American Welding Society, acting under ANSI rules for consensus standards, publishes AWS Standard Welding Procedure Specifications (SWPSs) which are initiated by the Welding Procedures Committee of the Welding Research Council (WRC). In initiating SWPSs for consideration as AWS standards, the WRC Committee is guided by the successful service experience in welded construction of the combination of base materials, welding process(es), and welding filler metals covered by the scope of each SWPS. An SWPS must meet the rules for qualification of AWS B2.1, Specification for Welding Procedure and Performance Qualification and be approved by the AWS Committee on Procedure and Performance Qualification. All SWPSs are supported by procedure qualification records which meet the rules of AWS B2.1 and which in addition are intended to meet the rules of the major codes which govern the intended applications such as AWS Structural Codes (D1.1, D1.2, D1.3, etc.), AWS Sheet Metal Welding Code (D9.1), and ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section IX.
Good Luck and again Welcome to the American Welding Society Online Forum

Marshall
- - By jakeman7676 Date 07-20-2010 12:14
So there is no such thing as real general spec or standard for arc welding low alloy steel? I guess I don't really understand how all of these specs and standards work. I need a work stand that will support quite a large load welded up and I was going to have my welder just go by a general arc welding spec to help ensure consistancy and quality. What I'm really looking for is a kind of a guide or a minimum standard that I can have the welds on this stand meet.

In that pdf you provided I see alot of specs for arc welding with different electrodes and even different types of arc welding. Not being a welder myself I don't really understand the meaning of each of these. Which electrode would be best for welding a low alloy carbon steel? Perhaps the spec I need is on page 15 and I just don't know enough about welding to identify it.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-20-2010 12:27
What you need is an engineer. If you are going to build work stands that support heavy loads that will be used by people I would suggest you get it designed properly so that if something goes wrong and it doesn't hold up you are not eaten alive by OSHA. Or better, that nobody gets hurt in the first place.
Have a design, have calculations, have a drawing, and have the design stamped. This will be what OSHA looks for if you get in trouble. Many people think home made tools are not in need of such things. This may be true, until someone gets hurt.
Can't afford it. Can you afford not to?
Parent - - By jakeman7676 Date 07-20-2010 12:29
The stand has been properly designed, analized, drawn, etc etc etc..... All I need now is the welding spec to put it all together.
Parent - - By jakeman7676 Date 07-20-2010 14:37
Do you think AWS B2.1-1-001 "Standard Welding Procedure Specification (WPS) for Site License Shielded Metal Arc Welding of Carbon Steel (M-1/P-1, Group 1 or 2), 3/16 through 3/4 inch, in the As-Welded Condition, With Backing" sounds like what I need?
Parent - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 07-20-2010 15:18
If you are still guessing , those comprehansive  analysis and plans  must have the signature  Donald Duck , Registered Profesional Engineer on them
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 07-20-2010 21:16
jakeman7676, As I alluded earlier what you are asking could be compared to asking a for medical advise. Things can go very wrong if and when there is harm or damage people start looking for some one to blame. Most any one could try to hold AWS or some one on this forum accountable. Your not likely to get any bad advice here, just the opposite in fact. But understand good results help require's good input.

If you can; give us more specifics such as material (you use the term “Low Alloy”), do you really know what a Low Alloy is? It aint mild steel and it aint general or P-1 material. "As Welded" mostly means no PWHT (Thermal Stress Relief) performed. The requirements for that may be of great importance to you if this Weldiment is as big as you say.

Me thinks you mean something like A36 (Plate or structural) or possibly 1018 (shapes & Bars). Those are generally referred to as Mild steel or P-1 (all can be welded with relative ease).

They make Turbine rotors from Low Alloy steel; I doubt you are working on a Steam or Gas Turbine so help us help you.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-21-2010 03:40
What all these guys are telling You is that whoever "engineered" this part SHOULD have specified the welding part too.

For a back yard "farmer" engineering method, keep all the loads on Your welds under 10 KSI load, and You will PROBABLY be OK.

If anyone but Yourself is going to use or be near this part when it is used, GET IT ENGINEERED.
- By R McLead (**) Date 07-20-2010 20:10
jakeman7676,
What everyone is saying is it is not understandable for a project of the nature in which you speak not to have contract documents stating what welding standard is applicable.  The welding standard would dictate the welding procedure specification.

Rey
- - By jakeman7676 Date 07-21-2010 12:22 Edited 07-21-2010 13:38
RonG, yes what I mean is 1018 and 1026 steel, I should have been more specific, sorry for the confusing terms.

Believe me the stand has been properly designed and what I've been trying to do now is finish up the drawings by finding the proper welding spec. The project is certainly not complete yet hence there not being a spec called out on the drawings. I obviously have no knowledge of welding or the standards which is why I'm here asking for a little guidance toward an appropriate spec. Fortunately I have found the spec that will be called out on the drawings.

Thank you for all your help,
Jake
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-21-2010 14:13 Edited 07-21-2010 14:16
The only BPS 4359 welding spec. I can find is for GTAW of steel for Bell Helicopters.  (Certainly not a "General Arc Welding Spec.")

Is this the welding standard for your "properly designed" project?   Or is there another BPS 4359?

It's beginning to sound like a broken record.  You keep sayng the project is fully and well designed and the posters keep asking... How can it be well designed if there is no clue as to how the material is to be joined?

So I'm pretty confused about your whole project...  If the BPS spec is for GTAW than the SWPS for SMAW will not comply.

Your design plans should call out for a governing welding code specification at least, as well as process and filler metal selection for the componant/s itself.

Nobody is trying to yank your chain... But I hope your beginning to get the picture... Everybody is trying to tell you the same thing... Don't be too proud to listen to them.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 07-21-2010 19:17
Well if you say so. Don't want to drag this out, But...are you aware that there is more to it than specifying a WPS? Type of joint as well as type and amount of weld are key factors also.

My point being... we are not with holding information from you, we just want to have enough infomation to get a warm fuzzy feeling about our replys :-).
Parent - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 07-24-2010 16:00
Jake,
You might start with reviewing ANSI 1026 and ASTM A29 for some valuable information. If what you said is true and the component has been properly designed then there will be weld information called out on the design. You might go back to the designer and ask for this info if its not already there. The designer will be figureing load and stress calcuation and where required by design any welding such as type and size will be figured in.

Hope that helps some
Jim
- - By Skaggydog (**) Date 07-25-2010 03:53
Geess guys, he said  1018 and 1026 steel. Could you not simply KISS this thing off for this guy that wants a simple answer to his question?  What if someone said, Hay, get a certified welder to run some E7018.  Weld all joints.  Fillet welds the size of the thinest member, full penatration butt welds with continious steel backing and flair bevels filled flush. 

How far off am I?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-25-2010 04:19
If nothing is specified and you want something that is recognized internationally, you can go with AWS D1.1-2010. It will tie your hand in regards to the base metals used, the need to use a matching filler metal, the use of certain joint details, preheat, qualified welder, a written WPS, fabrication requirements, weld profile requirements, weld sizes, acceptance criteria, etc. However, D1.1 is based on over 70 years of historical use and provides good fundamental information applicable to a wide range of applications that are not pressure containing.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Skaggydog (**) Date 07-25-2010 04:30
I just payed $496 for AWS D1.1:2010.  Maybe if he comes over to my house I will let him look at it for free.  Dose AWS allow that?
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 07-26-2010 02:43
Skaggydog, I think you misssed the point ---or I did?

I am of the impression he wants a WPS to specify on a drawing. If that is the case ---I say IF-- then,,,,. Do you have one you want give him? Even if you do it's a moot point. If he does not own the paper...

What is use of quoting a Welding code if you are not going to use it (the rest of code)? Think along the lines of Copy right infringment or something like that.

As I said, we are not with holding information but it seems he may be. Is this a commercial interprize or a home project? Will it put life or limb at stake? Where will this welding take place?

Had he just ask for some specifics like preffered Process, Filler, Preheat, etc thats a different.

As to the question about AWS: AWS D1 only tells you how to make your own PQR's & WPS's. I don't belive AWS will care one way or the other.
Parent - - By Skaggydog (**) Date 07-26-2010 04:13
Yes, RonG I think you did.
He didn't ask for a code to follow, or a WPS.  He just wants to weld up a simple frame soundly.  Unless he is messing with us, he is not going to say, "HA HA, This fame has to hold up a Nike Zeus w/ warhead and YOU TOLD ME WRONG!!  I'm sure he isn't the head designer at General Motors who proposes to sell all new hatchbacks with a camper trailer and is looking for someone to do all the  PQR's & WPS's for free ether.
Sometimes you can stop trying to act important and just help someone.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 07-26-2010 13:26
Thats real cute for this area of this Forum "Sometimes you can stop trying to act important and just help someone".  Again you mis-understand. I am not TRYING to be important,, I AM important.

Just how is it that you know so much about his buisness? If you are so adament about assisting this person, why have you not provided what he wants? Or better yet, go back through his post and take note of where he alludes to DRAWINGS wiith out a WELDING SPEC. Oh yes and while youre at it take notice of the topic header, "TECHNICLE" not SHOP TALK.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-26-2010 15:17 Edited 07-26-2010 15:19
Skag

You said:

"He didn't ask for a code to follow, or a WPS."

The original poster asks this:

"Do you think AWS B2.1-1-001 "Standard Welding Procedure Specification (WPS) for Site License Shielded Metal Arc Welding of Carbon Steel (M-1/P-1, Group 1 or 2), 3/16 through 3/4 inch, in the As-Welded Condition, With Backing" sounds like what I need? "

He is certainly asking for a WPS and a Code to follow.

Since he stated in another post that he "found" his specification, and it was an aerospace spec. for Bell Helicopters. (since edited out)  It might be for anything..  Jet engine stand.. APU stand... Who knows?

If you want to help him "weld it up"   Go ahead.. 

The other posters are trying to help the guy with the suggestion to get some some responsible engineering direction.

Edit:

Ron is important!
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 07-26-2010 20:34
Lawrence you made my whole day.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / General Arc Welding Spec

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