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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / LOF on Domestic HSS
- - By ctacker (****) Date 07-24-2010 01:44 Edited 08-02-2010 15:49
Anyone ever run across LOF on Domestic HSS, We are running 12 X 12 x 5/8 HSS and I ran across this, this is just 3 parts, we have dozens if not hundreds of these about 2-1/2 feet long we need to weld (CJP)to the top flanges of some rather large beams. so far I have only ran across the 3. How would you all handle this? Have all the parts Inspected? just do a visual and reject the obvious or reject the shipment? comments please!

edit:Tried to attach pics, browser software does not let me for some reason, browse button does not work, and cant type in the filename box!

try this link
http://home.comcast.net/~ctacker/site/?/photos/







pics added by moderator
Parent - - By raptor34 (**) Date 07-24-2010 20:29
If the whole batch has welds that look as bad as those I would reject the whole shipment.  I think the LOF is the least of your issues.  It looks like some kid in a high school shop welded those.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-25-2010 04:24
Did this HSS come in from China by any chance?

There have been a number of articles with warnings relating to problems with HSS from China.

People still buy from China even with all the problems reported, so if that is the case, you got what you paid for, scrap.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 07-25-2010 05:13
Hey Al, This is Domestic steel, I can't remember right off the name of the mfg.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 07-25-2010 04:35
Hello Carl, is that the internal flash from the weld seam on the tube? Definitely looks as if there is a lack of fusion on both edges at the root. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 07-25-2010 05:24
Hi Allen, All 3 of the pics are the inside seam, 3 different pieces, looks like even some porosity in some of the welds, we will be  contacting the supplier and letting them know we want the shipment inspected.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-25-2010 16:38
Check the applicable ASTM specification to verify the acceptance criteria for the weld was not met. From the photographs it would be hard to imagine they do meet the acceptance criteria, but it is always best to do your homework first.

I would expect a domestic manufacturer would be easier to work with than a foreign manufacturer if for no other reason than being located in the same country and the fact that you and the manufacturer speak the same language.

I hope you inspected the HSS before cutting it up to length or performed any other processing on the material. It is always easier to replace the material if you have not processed it by cutting, drilling, or other work to on the raw material. Many suppliers and manufactures have a policy where if the customer does any cutting or other processing on the material, they own it and it will not be replaced without charge. This is when a complete incoming inspection pays dividends.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 07-25-2010 17:13
The one thing we have going for us, is the supplier (not the mfg) cut the parts for us, we usually order parts like this pre cut, we did put a bevel on one end and ground the inside where the backing should go on some parts, our shipping/ recieving did not catch this, but they don't catch much.

Our suppliers are very good about replacing steel when we have problems, I do have to wonder about thier QC programs, we get stuff in all the time that gets rejected once it hits the floor, I wrote 4 NCR's for 4 different suppliers this past week alone, beams 1" short, 2" base plates with holes 2" off and stuff like that, there should be no shortage of inspector jobs out there,lol

Regards,
Carl
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-25-2010 17:48
Times are tough. QC is often categorized as "overhead,” i.e., it doesn't contribute directly to the bottom line of the balance sheet. As a result of the accounting methods used, the QC department and its staff are considered as expendable when it comes to cost cutting measures.

A better means of assessing the "value" of QC is to consider the costs incurred when the customer rejects the materials or product;  the intangible cost of the lost of customer confidence, the direct cost of replacing the rejected materials, and the direct costs of transportation, i.e., delivering the rejected material, picking up and returning the rejected material and delivering the replacement  materials. Where this case, the "value added" by the efforts of the QC department would be a better reflection of the "cost" of not providing proper QC.

In your case the supplier should look at the factors I listed above and incorporate the costs of ordering the tube, transporting the tube, handling the tube, cutting the tube, shipping it to your facility, picking the rejected tubes up to return it to the supplier, unloading it and storing it until it can be returned to the manufacturer or scrapped. This is no small matter because the costs add up very quickly and in many cases can exceed the cost of the original sale and any expected margin (profit).

I have an opportunity to play a part in writing the project specifications on some jobs that I am involved with. When I am involved, the costs incurred by my clients to handle rejected material are charged against the supplier, i.e., handling, reinspection, etc. The original incoming/receiving inspection is borne by the client as it should be part of the client's QC program, but once the  material is rejected, the clock starts ticking and all the charges of handling the material a second time, loading the old, unloading the new, reinspection, etc. is borne by the supplier. This penalizes the "bad" supplier for not providing the proper materials the first time. Suppliers learn very quickly that is unwise to provide substandard materials when it results in charges against their invoiced amount.

Nothing speaks louder than money when dealing with contractors, suppliers, and manufacturers.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By L51174 (**) Date 07-26-2010 19:23
"Nothing speaks louder than money when dealing with contractors, suppliers, and manufacturers."

Ayup! lol
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-02-2010 15:46
LOL...If by LOF you mean large custom rolled HSS with the internal backing bar only attached by the last few feet of the tubing, then yes, I've seen it. Sorry, I don't have a photo to attach. Looked inside of said piece and the backing bar was drooped down for almost the entire length.(except the very ends)
Parent - - By TSchlafly Date 08-11-2010 21:35
Hi Carl
Is there a chance we can communicate one on one. I would like ot know more about this HSS. You can find me on AISC.org Tom Schlafly
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 08-12-2010 04:13
Hi Tom,
didn't know where to look on AISC.org, sent you a P.M.
Carl
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 08-12-2010 04:33
UPDATE:
I had 44 pieces in the shop, MFG paid to have all 44 UT'd and found 6 total that were bad, 4 were found just by visual Inspection, mfg requested a 6" sample sent to them of one of the bad seams, had all 6 parts replaced and were paid for the labor costs we had incured for processing!
we are pleased with the outcome!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / LOF on Domestic HSS

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