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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / "stack of dimes"
- - By HgTX (***) Date 07-28-2010 18:43
We've talked about the "stack of dimes" look on this forum before.

In my mind, the stacked look comes from weaving.  In my opinion, not usually preferable to stringer passes, but no cause for alarm.

But I've seen that same look achieved by a series of spot tacks piled on top of each other--zap, zap, zap!

Seen this practice?  What do you think about it?  For starters, I'd think you'd be asking for trouble with hardness and lack of fusion.  The whole weld would be nothing but starts and stops.

Hg
Parent - By supermoto (***) Date 07-28-2010 18:57
I have argued that there is no way that can be as strong as a continuous weld.  In fact I worked for a street rod builder that he told me to weld no other way as it would create too much heat and warpage, which I would agree but I think that it would also be just as weak.  Thin guaged sheet metal would be fine but not structural frames and suspension components.

I keep meaning to put it to a test and see the results.  I do beleive that you can make a strong weld by doing this correctly but there is too much room for error.

I can make a weld with FCAW, GMAW, GTAW, SMAW to get what I think looks like a stack of dimes, so I don't think that you need to weave it to acheive that look.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-28-2010 19:55 Edited 07-28-2010 19:59
The string of tacks is pretty common with GMAW and solid wire on very thin material..  Always an opportunity for lack of fusion with this technique.. However, it may be a matter of how strong is strong enough.. if you are doing it on .050 sheet/tube connections or fillets it may be just fine..  If you are looking for perfect code quality fusion than break tests to prove the technique would be wise.

With spray GMAW I've seen many heavy structural players whip the mig puddle to produce pretty ripples or increase weld size... I don't like this practice at all and fillet break tests will show why in fillets and guided bends will do the same with grooves.  I've seen some folks use the "triggering" technique with Spray or Globular parameters to achieve vertical fillets on heavy structures.. Bad notion to my mind.

Edit:
Now there are GMAW-P programs for both steels and aluminums, that can pulse current to produce a pretty rippled effect with a constant torch progression and no weaving. (Fronius has one that synchronizes the wirefeed and the current pulsation and Miller has something similar with a strictly aluminum feeder setup)
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 07-28-2010 20:47
I think where I saw this was on tubular stuff.  Um, um...maybe 1/4" wall, probably thicker?  I'm a completely unreliable witness.  Structural application.

Hg
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 07-28-2010 23:39
I ran across this site the other day... Scroll threw the pictures... Some are of a beautiful stacked dime welds and others are worse than farm code...  They have some cool pictures and some terrible weld pictures..

   http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299587&highlight=weld+porn&showall=1

   RC
Parent - - By rcwelding (***) Date 07-31-2010 00:55 Edited 07-31-2010 01:00
Does anyone know who this guy is..???  Look through these pictures... This guy can lay some nice welds down..!!!!  He has a nice rig too..!!

   http://www.perform53.com/pages/X-MASCHCID-011_jpg.htm
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-04-2010 19:41
AZ plates,  AZ phone number,  AZ job sites,  AZ contractors,  Registered with the AZ Registrar of Contractors as a welding contractor,...

NOPE.  Don't know him.  But the qualified party with the registrar is John Bastrisky.  Hard to tell if he is the one doing those welds, but I'll bet they are his trucks.  Had this company since 2000.

Trying to see if he is an AWS member or not.  Don't see him listed in our section.  But I don't have a current list.

Nice rig.  Thanks for the link.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By pipehead (***) Date 08-08-2010 15:51
The guys name is skip he is around the phx area a very good hand I know some guys that have worked for him...
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 07-29-2010 15:41
Regarding the "pretty rippled effect"--is it really just a matter of aesthetics?  What's wrong with a plain ol' stringer pass if you can do it??

Hg
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-29-2010 17:27
Sometimes it is a matter of astetics...   I see bike frames and aluminum semi-trailers with these really lovely ripples.

I've seen employers that have QC check ripples per inch because they want that cosmetic appearence.

As far as being functional?  My opinion is that the straight ol stringer is the best chance at getting quality size and fusion.

Maybe some of the folks with deeper engineering know-how will chime in on this this whole ripple effect/quality question...
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 07-30-2010 18:57
In my industry, weaves are discouraged, so anything ripply just looks wrong to me.  Actually, anything other than machine-made SAW looks bad by comparison.  So I'm trying to recalibrate my sense of "good weld" to something a little more realistic.  Somewhere between machine-made SAW and "gawd, that looks like *I* welded it" is the range of what decent welds ought to look like.

Hg, so very much not a welder
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 07-29-2010 18:35
Hello HG and Lawrence, I do believe it has a bit to do with process as well as filler metal selection. In my experiences: cellulosic electrodes do need to be "worked, manipulated, oscillated, etc.", when these fillers are simply dragged along the joint there is a real chance of undercut along the toes or a lack of fill along the edges with a crowned build-up in the center of the bead. By working the eletrode in the puddle there is a much better chance of properly filling and providing the proper bead profile, IMHO.
     Aluminum GMAW is another one that could be hotly contested, many folks will use gun motion to achieve the "stacked dime" look of these beads, I believe most weld engineers would not support this sort of manipulation where strength and soundness of bead are considered. Pulsing, of course, could achieve this sort of look without compromising bead soundness, IMO.
     GMAW spray, on steel, stainless steel, and other similar materials can certainly be pushed/dragged with or without motion and lead to successful and acceptable bead profiles and mechanical properties IF certain criteria are met while doing the work. Too much whip, too far out of the puddle, wrong gun angles, improper machine parameters, can certainly lead to issues that would not provide for sound welds. Proving problems to someone that has certain practices ingrained into their work habit is probably the most challenging thing. They have to see it in order for it to have an impact on their willingness to make changes, I know that I am certainly that way. Well I don't know that I have made a positive contribution here, but there's my $.02. Best regards, Allan
- - By sillyslik (**) Date 07-29-2010 02:06 Edited 07-29-2010 02:19
i checked the site! love the beads! i am really green and i was able to spot alot of heat affected zones too large for the place intended for use causing eventual failure! and i was also able to spot alot of awsome welds with potential week points at critical stress points!i'm just learning to weld but i know i am on a good track cuz i am able to look at these pics and see where good goes wrong! i like the dimes look when it is needed and i always want it to be solid as rock in any circumstance! i am learning that it's not how much heat you use but how you apply the heat and how quick you cool it and how long the heat is applied vs. the material and it alloy and use!i am shocked at how far i have come in a short time!
Parent - - By Skaggydog (**) Date 07-30-2010 19:12
Look twice at the posters in that thread and you will notice a very famous person who has been posting at that forum for over four years.  He is a very skilled craftsmen and has gotten a lot of publicity lately.  Calls himself the "Pope of Welding".
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 07-30-2010 23:31
When I "stitch" weld I turn the machine well above where I would normally run where I holding the trigger back constantly. 

This of course is to help ensure proper fusion.  I usually only use this method on thinner small diameter tubing.  I am most likely to do it when access is poor.

It is helpful to prevent burn through, as well as allows for an unlimited time for me to achieve the best electrode angle before each pull of the trigger.

For something important like a roll cage I would make mock joints and them destroy them to ensure the procedure is providing proper fusion.
Parent - - By dmilesdot (**) Date 08-04-2010 11:33
I believe that the "stack of dimes" terminology is left over from tig welding on stainless pipe.  At least thats where I remember hearing it.  Its a product of rhythmical oscillation and adding the same amount of filler every time as well as advanceing the arc the same amount.  I dont believe that it was ever intended to be sequential tacks.  How could you ever figure heat input if the arc isnt maintained?  I cant imagine a welder having enough time to see that the edges of his puddle are fusing with the stacked tacks.
Just my opinion.
Dave
Parent - - By slagline 3 (**) Date 08-04-2010 20:00
"Stacking Dimes" is terminology left over from back in the day, the old pipeliners (me included) would do a lot of butterfly caps. Compressor stations, pig launchers and the like would all have the "stacking dimes cap" looked real good on horizontal welds as well.
But, we had the ole 85P to do it with, puddle would freeze well for us and put the metal where you wanted it, and it would stay. You can still see a lot of this kinda work out west.
Parent - - By HELLTACO (*) Date 08-05-2010 19:23
stack of dimes is terminology left over from Billy the Kid

Billy the Kid's jailor planned to blow Billy away by loading up his 10-gauge  shotgun with 18 dimes instead of buckshot -  but  Billy got to the shotgun first and emptied it into the jailor.
Parent - By rcwelding (***) Date 08-06-2010 03:57
Have you ever used that proses..???? Try it out and let me know how it works out for you..!!! LOL     Im very curious..!!!!
Parent - - By nevadanick (**) Date 08-06-2010 15:13
cant fix stupid
Parent - - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 08-08-2010 16:48
Check out this thread.http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php/59124-****Pretty-Welds....**** Off-road guys have their own way of doing it. I think the zap-zap-zap- mig is no good- but it seems to do most of them fine. The first time I welded as a pipe fitters helper I was told to make it look like a stack of dimes. That was with 5p.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-09-2010 02:23
I don't do critical welding. I use the Zap Zap Zap on thin metal when the fitup is poor. I don't change down to smaller wire for a 2 minute job. My welds don't look good like theirs do, but they are good enough for what I do that way.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / "stack of dimes"

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