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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / 3G/4G Welders for T-Y-K Joints
- - By Nalla (***) Date 09-03-2010 21:03
Dear Friends
Applicable Code- AWS D1.1
Work Scope- Welding Single-Bevel Structural Tubular Columns ( API 5L X52 x 18" Dia ) to Module Support Base Plate.
What has been done -T-FP Weld ( T-Y-K  Joints) Root/ Hot Pass - by 6GR Welders followed by Fill/Cap by 3G/4G Qualified welders.
The same done for T-Y-K Bracings FP Joints ( API 5L X52 x 12" to 16" Dia )

Is it allowed according to AWS D1.1?.

Appreciate all your guidance, Thanks
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-04-2010 15:13
No.

The welders that are qualified on plate, with backing, are qualified for CJP (with backing) and PJP butt joints in pipe larger than 24 inches in diameter. Reference AWS D1.1-2008 Table 4.10 footnote c.

Looking at the same table, again looking at 3G and 4G plate, the columm listing CJP T-, Y-, & K- joints is shaded indicating the welder completing the 3G and 4G plate positions is not qualified. Looking at the column listing PJP T-, Y-, & K- joints, both footnotes c and e are applicable.    

My understanding of the question asked and the information provided by the table indicates the welder qualified on plate would not be qualified to weld T-, Y-, or K- joints when there is backing employed or the even when the root bead (backing) is completed in open root by a different welder with the proper qualifications.  

Best regards -Al
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-04-2010 17:09
Start by looking at Figure 2.14 for examples of T, Y and K connections.  Notice that none of these include a detail for tube to base plate connections, they are all tube-to-tube connections.  If you look at Table 4.10, welders qualified on 3G + 4G plate tests are qualified to make CJP "butt groove" welds in box tubing, but not CJP T-, Y- or K-connection groove welds.  Footnote d also limits welding on CJP butt groove welds in box tubing:  "Not qualified for joints welded from one side without backing, or welded from two sides without backgouging."

A base plate to tube weld would not be a "butt groove", but would be considered a tee-groove or corner groove (for an end plate).  I would not consider it to be a T-, Y- or K-connection, especially if the designer only used box tube as a convenient shape (e.g. could have used angle, channel, H-beam or I-beam) and did not use the T-, Y- or K-connection design requirements.  Wrapping corners on a box tube is less difficult than wrapping corners on other shapes, such as channel.  The existing words do not support using a 3G + 4G plate test to make a tee- or corner-groove weld.  This would be a good inquiry to submit to D1.  Perhaps one of the D1 Committee members will chime in and tell us if this has ever been discussed (I recall a similar inquiry back in the '80s, but could not find where it was published).
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-04-2010 18:08 Edited 09-04-2010 18:44
This is where a sketch would be helpful.

The individual posting the question included reference to T-, Y-, and K-connection, which I can only assume, is the proper callout. A sketch of the joint(s) in question could eliminate any misinterpretation of the actual conditions and joints being welded.

The commentary of D1.1 makes it clear that there is a difference between welding a pipe or a box tube (pipe and box tubes are considered to be hollow structural shapes or HSS) and plate. The difference between welding plate and HSS is that welding a HSS involves welding “around” the pipe and the small radius of the box tube. It would appear there is no distinction between welding the HSS to a plate or to another HSS or equal size or different sizes. The situation does become even more complicated if the intersection between the plate (end plate?) and HSS is at a skew. Then the dihedral angle comes into play. Also note that the box tube requires the welder qualification to include a macroetch at the radius to ensure the welder obtained complete fusion. My initial opinion was changed somewhat after reviewing the commentary.

AWS D1.1-2008 clause 4.26(3) references Figure 4.24(B) for qualifying welders to weld butt joints, T-, Y-, or K-joints for production welding involving such joints in HSS where backing is utilized. In this case the initial root bead and second intermediate layer of weld would be considered backing for the purpose of welder qualification.

Again, I may not see the whole picture or understand the question. I don't see where qualifying the welders in the 3G and 4G positions on plate meet the intent or the requirements of D1.1 in this situation.

I believe it is understood that a welding standard cannot address every conceivable joint configuration imaginable. At some point a meeting of the minds between the owner, engineer, fabricator, and inspector must be considered to address the weird or unusual. AWS D1.1 has provisions allowing the Engineer (the owner’s representative) some latitude when it is unclear what the code requires or if in the Engineer’s judgment an alternative to the code requirement is appropriate.

In any event, when there is a question with regards to the intent of a code requirement, short of waiting for many months while an official code interpretation from the code committee is obtained, the Engineer should be the arbitrator and provide direction to the fabricator and the inspector. It is not the inspector’s prerogative to grant a waiver to or to modify the requirements of the code.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-04-2010 18:35
I agree, a sketch would be helpful.  The question also does not mention whether it is box or round tube, which also makes a difference.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-04-2010 18:46
The post mentions API 5L which is line pipe or what structural welders refer to as "round hollow beams."

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 09-04-2010 23:54
Ahhhh...I overlooked that obvious bit of info.  Then the answer is clearly "no".  A 3G + 4G plate test does not qualify groove welds in pipe (or round hollow beams) less than 24" in diameter.
Parent - - By Nalla (***) Date 09-05-2010 15:35 Edited 09-05-2010 15:47
Dear Friends
Thanks for all your responses
Attached detail of joint

Why can't root/hot runs done 6GR qualified welders  as backing and followed fill/cap by 3G/4G Welders. I think AWS D1.1 allows somewhere this option, maybe in commentary.
Pls advise, Thanks
Attachment: Binder1.pdf (179k)
Parent - By ziggy (**) Date 09-06-2010 02:56
although the commentary can be extremely helpful, might want to keep in mind that none of its provisions are binding.

ziggy
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-06-2010 05:12
D1.1 allows welders qualified on plate to weld pipe if the pipe is 24 inches in diameter or larger. That does not appear to be the situation in your post, i.e., the pipe diameters is less than 24 inches (610 mm).

I believe the D1.1 committee feels that welding pipe is different than welding plate because the welder is constantly changing the direction of travel while welding a circumferential joint in pipe.

Another complexity introduced by the joint between the plate and the pipe depicted by the sketch is the restricted access afforded by the plate. Restricted access is a consideration when the welder takes the 6GR test for T-, Y-, and Y-joints. However, restricted access is not a consideration when the welder takes a standard plate test.

Best regard - Al
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 09-15-2010 14:47
Al is 100% on the money, as usual.  The answer is no.  I get this question from fabricators all the time.  It is not related only to it being a single side weld, it also relates to included groove angle.
Mankenberg
Parent - By Nalla (***) Date 10-22-2010 21:35
Dear Friends
With all the experts guidance from the forum, manage to convince Construction Manager to engage 6GR Welders all the way.
7 joints welded by 3G/4G welders- welds removed, MPI and welded by 6GR.
FYI-Before removing the weld UT done and all 7 joints passed.
Sadly, 2 out of 7 joints re-welded by  same 6GR welder failed  UT at the root(LOF) Fill-Slag inclusions!
Fully agree code compliance is mandatory
Thanks
Parent - By dnelson2031 (*) Date 10-30-2010 22:30
Yes, I've also heard them referred to as 'O-beams.'  :)
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / 3G/4G Welders for T-Y-K Joints

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