Hi,
I want to buy a welder to weld mild steel for hobby use. I have a degree in art and I like to use metal in my work. Also, I would like to do some modifications to my son's go cart. I would also like to build a 5x8 utility trailer from plans. I will be welding less than 1/4" thickness 95% of the time. I probably will use it on an infrequent basis, in other words not every day, probably not even every month. I at one time had a Lincoln 225AC stick welder which my brother hocked without my knowing. That's another story... Anyway, I had a bit of trouble welding thinner guage sheet metal and pipe with that welder, it tended to burn through a lot. I hear it is easier to weld thin stuff with mig. I think I am going to buy a mig. I actually would not mind having both, but I ran into a problem. My shop is 200' from the 200amp service panel on my house. To have 220v with sufficient wire size to run a welder out there is going to be expensive. I had an electrician do an estimate for a 100amp service panel to my shop and it was going to be just shy of $1000. He said the wire was the main expense. I also checked with the electric company and they would have to place 2 telephone poles to get 100amp service to my shop at a cost over $500 and that does not include paying an electrican to put a 100amp box in. I already have 110v in my shop which makes it more attractive to get a mig welder. I like the Miller 135, the Lincoln 135, and the Hobart Handler 135. The Miller I am told is the best, however, it is a little out of my price range. The Hobart and the Lincoln are very similar in features. I just want opinions on which machine to buy. Any advice is appreciated! If you like one better than the other, explain why... Thanks
What size cable for 110v is feeding to your shop? What is the amperage rating of the cable? Most small 110v machines will need at least a 20 to 30 amp service. The more voltage drop from a long service run to your machine will simply limit power output which is already questionable on small machines. I'm afraid your current 110v might not be able to power a small 110v Mig properly...maybe have an electrician inspect your current service and get him to give you an opinion on what your current service can handle amperage draw wise. 200' is quite a long run, so expect a voltage drop unless they used a decent size wire guage when the shop was wired initially.
I have owned two small 110v welders and neither were able to weld in excess of 1/8". Even then, there wasn't as good of penetration as there should have been IMO.
I recently upgraded to a much larger 230v, 250-300 amp Miller MIG...there just is no comparison in how well the larger 230v machines works, even on the lower volt/amp stuff like 1/8" (compared to a smaller 110v machine).
I know it may hurt your budget, but if you really want to be able to weld 3/16" and 1/4" material, you NEED to get your service upgraded and get a 230v machine...175 amp rating minimum...200-210 would be your best bang for the buck long term investment.
BTW, unless there's a reason why you can't, I'd go with underground service as apposed to having two poles planted. Maybe find a friend who is a licensed electrician and ask if you can help to save labor costs (you rent and operate the ditch witch for the trenching, etc.)
good luck and post back what you decide upon
Todd G
http://www.malibumotorsports.cjb.net
I am afraid I will have to agree that a 110vac MIG unit is a bad idea. I also had a 220 stick welder (Miller) and had trouble welding thin stuff with it. I was welding .050 square tubing. My wife bought me a good 110vac mig unit and the unit claimed it could weld up to 1/4". It did weld the .050 tubing well, but that was on the highest setting!! It also welded 26 guage sheet metal well but both of those are a far cry from 3/16 or 1/4". I dont know why these units claim to be able to weld such thick material when they just cant do it. Maybe a great welder who properly prepared the joint etc. etc. I't might hurt getting the 220vac into your shop but you will be so much happier with a bigger unit. Then again this is just my opinion however, I too wanted to buy another 110vac mig unit and have researched them extensively, they just are not going to do what you want. Good Luck with any way you go.
Mark
Thanks for the reply Mark. Assuming I did get 220v service and could at that point go with a stick or higher amperage MIG, what would be the best solution for welding a wide range of thicknesses? Meaning, do you have to buy two welders, one for thick materials (ie stick) and one for thinner materials (ie mig)?
I have a 110V wire feed welder at home and weld 3/16" thick metal regularly with not problem. I have obtained adequate fusion on 1/4" pieces, and can weld thicker peices if they are adequatly preheated. (preheat effectively reduces the thickness of the metal). I had problems for a long time because I was trying to use it like a regular welder. When I wanted to weld thick stuff, I would crank it up. Thats what you would normally do, but one day I finally noticed the chart inside the panel on the machine, and it said for thicker metal, turn the volts up and wire feed down. It seemed backwards, but it worked, and I haven't had problems since.
WFS...
I have a different spin on things.
Everyone's advice is true and valid if you do in fact choose to go GMAW. It's a widely accepted process, but not trouble-free or idiot-proof as some sales people may lead you to believe. If a short learning curve is important consider the devil you already know- SMAW. It offers economical versitility and familiarity.
Also, about the power, it's probably best to bury a conduit and run the wire in it; the conduit also leaves a handy avenue to run telephone lines, alarms, and anything you might have never thought of tewnty years from now, unless you go with a gasoline powered rig.
Also, what are your priorities as to weld quality and versatility?
GMAW is a process which lends itself to production... it's a high volume process which takes bulk quantities of filler wire and lays it down into the weldment very efficiently. Aluminum presents feed issues and requires a different spool of filler and a different mix of gas... so does stainless. Different metals you choose to weld require different filler, as with every process, but unlike some other processes, you have to buy a spool of it and change over the machine to accomondate different diameters and alloys.
As an artist myself (my work has seen limited publication) I encourage you to go a little further and develop your discipline in TIG (GTAW) welding. The benefits will be a potentially superior quality of weld, more convenient versitility, and, of course, a weld bead which in itself may be considered a work of art. The little projects you mentioned will be a convenient training ground but no substitute for formal training. You will, however, pick it up quickly.
Look over this site and you will see evidence to support my recommendation.
More conditional is my recommendation to consider the oxy-acetylene process. If you can find training in it, it truely is a noble art form. The oxyacetylene flame is THE fire that fed the industrial revolution. It has a long, interesting, and impressive history and can be used to join just about anything that can be joined with heat. It will also cut steel, and permit other techniques requiring melting, such as balling the end of a wire. Its heat can also be used to color the metal. On a small scale it can be used to permit you to make forgings, and the list goes on; concisely, if metalwork is your medium you will gain more benefit from the torch set than any other single welding apparatus. Its also probably cheapest on initial purchase, and portable without restraint from weather or length of power cords.
Everybody and anybody arc welds today. The mere fact that oxyacetylene was used to create a sculpture should serve to increase its interest, value, and marketability. The process itself is rare. I have a friend in Trenton NJ who is a blacksmith with work on display in the Louvre (in Paris, France) not only because it's well executed, but done by a process nearly lost. Consider the less tangible benefits such as those, also.
Be wary of buying tanks privately, though; there are issues to address if you choose to do so and they may be difficult or impossible to get filled.
regards
d
I agree about oxy acetylene- it's the first thing I ever welded with- It's still a good process if you're not in too big a hurry and it's very versatile. You can do anything from soldering to brazing to welding (a lot of the chrome moly tube frames of WW 2 airplanes were O-A welded). You can take it anywhere and it still works. It isn't as easy as other processes but I believe that once you are proficient at it other processes are easier to learn.
If I could have only one electric machine it would be stick. Again versatility rules.
I don't think you need 100 amps- that should be enough to run a 400 amp output machine. 1/8" electrodes don't require more than about 120 amps. At that a machine that is efficient at all should be drawing no more than 30 amps or so from a 220 line. Look at the input requirements of the machine you entend to use before you contract for electrical work.
If the current service is in conduit you can use the old wire to pull in the new (there may be issues of size of the conduit). If you own the property there is no legal impediment in most juristictions to your doing this electrical work yourself. If you choose this route I would hope that you understand what is necessary before you proceed. The inspection process will help protect you from mistakes.
Regards
Bill
ok, everybody else has said that a 110V machine doesn't do very well on 1/8" or thicker. i have a Hobart Handler 135. true, 1/8" is it's limit with GMAW, but when welding w/ self-shielded FCAW the limit is much higher. i've destructively tested fillet welds formed in the flat and vertical positions and i had full penetration on 3/8" steel. sure, it takes a little longer to make a properly sized weld on 1/4" plate, but the fact remains that it IS possible w/ FCAW. the only reason i'd use GMAW on my machine is if i was welding 16 ga or thinner. and FCAW on my machine performs very well in all positions. and i've only popped a 20 amp circuit breaker a couple times...probably because there were a few other things on the same circuit. good luck
This is an interesting discussion that reinforces a thought I've had for al long time. While the application may drive the basic process, the skill and experience of the operator seems to drive success. I have heard about all the advantages of the newer equipment, e.g. pulsed etc. and how it works better (and I'm learning how to use it). Yet, I remember seeing welds done 30 years ago on basic equipment by an experienced person that looked every bit as good as welds done today. As one of my occupations, I have been blacksmithing ornamentally for the past 20 years. Recently, I had the occassion to sculpt a 1/2" rod into a branch that included a crotch. Normally, I would have folded the rod over and forge welded it. But, the propane forge at hand would not generate a welding heat. I had a Hobart Handler 120 available so I heated the folded branch to a forging heat and layed in a large single pass weld. Using the remaining heat, I forged/textured the branch. It worked fine. Obviously, this was not a critical or structural weld, but because I was familiar with the equipment at hand it did the job. Also, the comment about using the OxyAcet. rings true with me regarding art metal. It is as handy as my hammer when it comes to working metal. (Safety sure is an issue though.) Have fun.
Ken,
It's nice to know one's opinions are shared by others, or at least their merits worthy of regard. I read yours with interest.
I was left a little confused about your remark about safety, though, and if I correctly interpreted your meaning I would dispute your suggestion that oxyacetylene is significantly more hazardous than any other common welding equipment, and certainly no more hazardous than gasoline or natural gas, both of which is in tens of millions of homes daily with a minimum of incident...
...although precautions for storage and handling of the apparatus and gas containers exist, they are simple and perhaps more easily managed than regular amounts of unpredictible spatter flying perhaps over a meter away into some forgotten hazard, or electrical wiring or connections overheating inside a wall somewhere.
The real hazard lies in complacency and false security. I have said before that welding is probably no more dangerous than driving an automobile, except before driving it is necessary to obtain a license. We sometimes forget the purpose was intended for more than identification, and also forget or ignore safe driving practices, sometimes with disasterous consequences.
On a different level, however, I admit that by the time heat gets through those gloves it sure is HOT!
Regards,
d
dee,
Point well taken and agreed with. Welding is safer if not safer than many other occupations. A woodworker friend of mine with decades of experience just lost a thumb in a table saw accident.
Part of the problem of making a very brief remark is that it can be viewed in a number of ways. My thought was that when something is not properly tended to with OA (or propane etc.) things can happen in a hurry, eg not securing a bottle, flashback etc. Years ago I was a new employee working for a transformer mfg. company. I had no training in welding. One day, I was told I would need to use a cutting torch to cut off the headers of a large transformer that was to be repaired. Looked simple enough as I had watched someone do it once before. I gathered up the necessary equip. took it to the transformer, put my goggles on a proceeded to cut. I was having a great time until someone yelled that I was on fire! Turns out that unknown to me, the transformer was washed with a flammable solvent and although it looked dry, solvent was puddled under and in it. Fortunately, I was wearing the normal safety gear and cotton clothing and was not hurt.
My point is that safety is always a timely topic to me. I'm sure someone else has a similar safety incident to relate with respect to a buzz box. The equipment may be the best available and absolutely safe but the human factor can be a problem, as you noted.
By the way, I commute 3 hours a day in freeway traffic and I believe welding is a whole lot safer than driving! Some months back I looked over at the person driving next to me (approx speed 70 mph) and that person was using TWO cell phones at the same time and steering by bumping the wheel with her elbows. I thought I had seen people doing about everything while driving but that has topped everything.
Thanks for the discussion.
Ken
Ken; She probably just got done puttin on her "face" before she got the second phone call. Scary ain't it? I saw the phone deal and the facefix deal at the same time, I still shudder. J Krout
Ken
Yes, I believe I agree. Welding is safer. Fortunately, the trouble I have found myself in amounted to nothing more than an excuse to a "Wyle E. Cyote" joke or to have a chuckle.
Huston space control is still tracking my 1x3 in geosynchronus orbit over the eastern US which was launched by unthinkingly ripping it the wrong feed direction through a radial arm saw. My safety foibles merely serve to embarrass the trade in general... I wont elaborate about them beyond pointing out that safe work practice and intelligent pre-cautions prevented injury. Precautions can be priceless.
I did note a few years ago that one of the most dangerous airports in America was among those with the fewest incidents; apparently due to awareness of the hazards.
I try to consider the fellows who are reading us with little or no background. One poor tenderfooted soul around here somewhere has a welder with apparently no hint as to what it is, or that we'd even need to know before telling him how to use it. While the important thing is, and it's to his credit, that he knew enough to ask a reliable source and wants to learn, I feel an obligation to consider folks with similar inexperience.
I try to guard and clarify my comments. Thats one reason they're verbose. There are only a few people who can achieve technical accuracy to great depth in simple and concise language- the first who comes to mind is G S Crisi; unfortunately I am not one of those few and I try to observe and learn from them. You'll know who they are when you see them, and reading them at their best is art better than poetry.
To that end, and because like any tenderfoot I dont let my limitations stand in my way, it became necessary to add this post despite the note of finality closing your last msg. While those of us with a little training would not have any general trouble, the "Joe Tenderfoot" could draw wrong conclusions elsewhere on this BBS... and this word was for Joe's benefit as well as the rest of us.
Perhaps a "Professional Use Only" warning would be of general benefit.
Please dont feel like I'm unnecessarily nit-pickin. I thought the nit-pickin was necessary, nit-pickin though it is; the horse here wasn't quite dead, but by now we can both be sure of its demise.
Best regards
d
Well, we had some nice dissertations.
I wonder though, wfs4998, did you ever get your answer or did you run away screaming?
Ken
Jeeze Ken,
we left out only submerged arc, laser, resistance and electron beam processes; wfs has ample food for thought.
d
dee, Don't forget plasma. Kind of like to have one of those cutters myself. On the more serious side, what do you think of the plasma cutters with built-in air? I know they have limitations. Is there a similar issue as with the 110v vs 220 MIG? Don't seem to hear much about them.
Ken
Ken
At my rate of production my needs have never exceeded the performance limitations of oxyacetylene; satisfactory is good enough, some say. I have no research base to form an opinion upon, and I cannot justify the investment in plasma any more than I can for pulsed arc equipment in my shop.
Please bear in mind my focus is already upon a very wide and diverse scope of attention.
Regards
d
I would like to thank you for all your replies! It sounds like stick (SMAW?) or Oxy-Acetylene are the way to go or BOTH! Anyway, what if I got a stick welder and just put a 220v outlet for it right near my service panel on the house. I could simply get a welding cart to caddy the machine from the shop when I want to use it. I could set up a welding table outdoors and just use it there. Then I could at some future time run the new service (200' away from main service panel) out to my shop. I have welded with a lincoln 225/125 AC/DC machine before and really found it could do a lot.
A thought though... If I did want to do O-A, I am unfamiliar with how you get the tanks. I know you but the torch rig. Do you buy, lease, or rent the tanks? To get an O-A setup, how expensive is it? $500? $1000? O-A would also be helpful in heating metal for bending rod and flat steel -- another plus for that process.
Sounds to me like mig welding is great for thin stuff if you go 110v but not so hot for thick unless you go 220v and bigger (200amp plus) which makes cost a factor and also makes SMAW look more affordable.
Sounds like SMAW & O-A are very versatile and provide a lot of bang for the buck. Any thoughts on cost of O-A and my idea about SMAW outdoors would be appreciated! Thanks, Chris
Almost forgot to mention about TIG... Someone suggested it makes a beautiful weld for art purposes. I have to admit I have never even seen TIG machine or the process, I know the least about that. So I have no idea what a TIG machine would cost or what it is best suited for or how the learning curve is for that process. Anyway. Chris
Chris; You can pick up a decent oxy-acetylene outfit with all the goodies for about 220 bucks,this includes goggles,striker, hoses, tip for welding as well as cutting(the torch has a cutting head you screw on and a welding head you screw on the handle), and regulaters. They are usually light duty outfits for that price but you can get better sets for more cash. The bottles you can rent by the month or lease them for a year, yearly lease is cheaper if your gonna have them a while. I lease mine for 45 bucks a bottle for a year, when I get a bunch of empty bottles I give em a call, they pick up the empties and leave full ones (22 bucks oxygen 28 acetylene, no charge for delivery). Or you can buy the bottles, I don't know what they cost, but my supplier wants me to get them inspected every year, and I would have to pay for that too. Altogether, I think you can set up a decent Oxy acetylene outfit for less than 500 bucks, depending on the grade of torch outfit you get. If your not gonna haul them around in your truck like I do then I think the type I mentioned to you would do fine. Allow me to say this though, when you shut your bottles down always drain your lines and back the t handle out, this way when you turn the bottles on you are not putting all the pressure from the bottle in the regulater at once, your regulaters will last longer and it might save your life. Oxy-acetylene is a slow process and can be very hard to master but it does a nice job, night schools at your local vo-tech can teach you or if your stubborn and bullheaded (like me) you can learn it on your own. Personally I would go with stick(SMAW) it's what I do best and what I'm most comfortable with. Hope this helps, good luck and Happy welding. J Krout
Sounds like you are homing in on a decision. I agree SMAW and OA may be the most versatile and economic way to go. I started with a Lincoln AC "buzz box" and it served me well. I picked it up at a swap meet complete with a cart and approx. 50' of #6 or 8 as an extension for about $100 in almost new condition, ...in 1981. That was probably luck but they are not prohibitively expensive anyway. Just select the appropriate electrode and blend the weld for art pieces if you wish. The OA is very handy for cutting, heating (even for forging a small section of metal) and welding. I used it for a lot of brazing too. TIG is great and I am currently trying to become proficient with it. Sounds like it might just complicate things for you right now. On the other hand, if money is not a problem, you can also stick weld (AC, DC+, DC-) with a TIG machine. I have a Miller Syncrowave 180 and really enjoy using it.
Good luck and have fun with what-ever you get.
Ken
I made a decision and bought a Lincoln (SMAW) Welder AC/DC 225/125. Thank you everyone for all your input. Now I will most certainly have more questions to come as I learn to use it.
Chris
Chris; Thats a good machine, have fun with it!! J Krout
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