NYCDOT Welding

Date 10-25-2010 21:34 Edited 10-25-2010 21:37

PM Joseph P. Kane, he is very familiar with the inner workings in NYC. I'm sure he can answer all of your questions regarding the ins and outs of NYCDOT work.

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/user_info.pl?uid=6101

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 10-25-2010 22:27

John is right about asking Joe and there are some others here as well who would know quite a bit a bout that.

But, for what you are doing, why aren't you using Pre-Qualified WPS's or Standard WPS's (SWPS) from AWS that you don't have to do all the work and expense of qualifying yourself?

Also, when you do a PQR per D1.1 Clause 4 you do have to run separate plates for Hor, Vert, and Overhead. After that is run and you qualify welders to the PQR's WPS you only have to run a Vert and an Overhead for all position. Vertical up qualifies for Vert, hor, and flat.

When you qualify a welder to a Pre-Qualified WPS from Clause 3 of D1.1 you only have to run the Vert and Overhead, for all position.

I think you have a difference of opinion on what is covered because of the way you are qualifying your procedures and developing your written welding procedures.

Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-25-2010 22:33

He may want to run something like a 2G +5G or a 6G pipe coupon to qualify on those handrails due to the positions like stated by the OP.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 10-25-2010 22:48

True, I guess I was 'assuming' squares, flats, etc for industrial barriers not necessarily round for grip rails. Though I have used rounds for barriers as well. But as I see nothing about pipe in the OP and their other PQR tests were with plate, still an assumtion on my part.

But then, according to AISC defining of 'Structural', handrails are not part of structural. Not to say how NYC looks at them regardless of how the codes look at them. Also, it depends upon how heavy of wall thickness we are talking about. Most railings will be thin enough to be D1.3 not D1.1. That removes it even further from the 'Structural' definition according to AISC.

But, if your prints, specs, general notes, or NYC say that ALL welding will be done per D1.1, then 'ALL' MEANS 'ALL' THAT'S 'ALL' 'ALL' MEANS!!!

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 10-27-2010 20:49 Edited 10-27-2010 20:51

If the NYSSCM is invoked, D 1.1 cannot be used. The NYSDOT and the NYCDOT both make allowances for handrails and other non standard bridge components, such as round railings and Stainless Steel Railings.

Qualification to the NYSSCM is somewhat like qualifying to AWS D 1.5 (Bridge Code) The NYSSCM is more than a welding code, which does not resemble D1.1. Even resemblance of D1.5, to the D 1.1 is superficial. Things like AWS WPS pre-qualification and AWS Standard WPS's are a sad dream to the unwary contractor!

Almost all aspects of the contract operations in a DOT contract are subject to full time Third Party Inspection. The contractor is required to supply a Lockable office, phone, copier, fax machine, file cabinet, hanging file, and plan table and office desk for the inspector. Material traceability, shielding gas traceability and testing, fastener traceability and testing, and even material transfer and delivery, is closely regulated. Things like tack welds, temporary welds and arc strike remediation have strict requirements that the ordinary structural contractor does not believe, and cannot afford to deal with. Most "first time" DOT contractors are overwhelmed by the extensive nature of the requirements. I've recently saw a small shop owner cry when he could not and would not comply with the requirements. He didn't even have a copy of the NYSSCM, but he couldn't have read or understood it even if he had a copy!

There is money to be made in DOT work, but you have to know what you are doing, and quality requirements are job one.

Joe Kane

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 10-27-2010 23:18

Interesting. Thanks Joe. Hope the OP comes back and reads that info.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 10-28-2010 11:49 Edited 10-28-2010 11:54

The OP has contacted me by PM / E-Mail. I called and spoke to him personally. I confirmed the bad news that the Pennoni Supervisor, Mr. Joe Squatrito and Pennoni shop Inspector Ed Steadman had already given him. I volunteered to answer future questions.

Fortunately, this OP sounds like he has some experience with NYSDOT or NYCDOT, AND he actually has a copy of the NYSSCM, and he can read it and at least partially understand it. He is not the typical contractor trying to just "Get Over" the contract specifications. I suspect he is sharp enough and honest enough to work through the issues that may nevertheless be new to him.

I would caution others who think that the way THEY always do things is "good enough", or who think that THEY always do "Great Work", to carefully read the contract documents and the documents that are "incorporated by reference", before signing on the dotted line.

I have seen many otherwise competent contractors get in over their head, when it came to getting involved in contract work in which they had little or no prior experience. I am involved (as a Pennoni TPI) with a contractor right now, who does not have enough knowledge of the NYSSCM. Every time I tell them that something cannot be done, or is required by the NYSSCM, they accuse me of throwing up "roadblocks". Of course, I show them "Chapter and Verse", but the resentment and hard feelings are there. Extra work costs money and they did not plan for that extra expenditure when they bid the job and signed on the dotted line.

Many times on this forum, I have read posts where someone pooh poohs some contract or code requirement. Often the poster spouts utter nonsense about code requirements. Often posters mock code and contract requirements, acting like THEY were experts who had simpler equally effective solutions. I seldom respond to these posters, but I always think "AMAZING".

Joe Kane

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 10-28-2010 00:41

Thanks Joe for chiming in.

By JettIndFab Date 10-29-2010 15:54

Yes Joe, Thank You for your time the other day, your help was most useful. we will keep chipping away at the beast that is NYCDOT and get a solid handle on it. thanks to the others for helping point me to Joe.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 10-29-2010 17:18

We've been into NYCDOT work for about 1 1/2 years now. You are right in that it is a different animal altogether.

First thing is to FORGET any other welding code you may be used to. About the only thing in common with D1.5 now is that the NYSSCM uses the D1.5 prequalified joint details. (The previous edition had their own version of joint details.)

Print off a copy of the NYSSCM, have it bound, and make lots of notes in the margins. If the NYSSCM says it, then they want it.

2nd thing is, NYCDOT has a few requirements that differ from NYSDOT. Small things, but again they want what they want.

Examples: you will have to plan for Pennoni witnessing the RT of your PQR plate. And NYC has info they want on the RT film that NYS doesn't require.
Also Pennoni will witness the machining and testing at the lab. You wll need to send the RT's to NYCDOT for review/approval before the lab starts processing your plate. Make sure the lab doesn't jump the gun.

You will need to arrange to have the bends and the macro etches sent to NYCDOT, even though the lab may report all is good and even though Pennoni will have witnessed the testing.
Same thing with your tee test macros - send them to NYC and it doesn't matter that your onsite Pennoni inspector must also review them and sign them off.
When we started, NYCDOT allowed us to have the lab ship the samples direct to them for review. Now we have to have all shipped back to us, QC review/report; QA review/report, and then send all to NYC for their review/approval.

You might be mixing up your WQTR requirements with your WPQR requirements. You can test your welders in 3G to qualify for 1G, 2G, & 3G. And we have been required to send WQTR films to NYSDOT in Albany for certification - not to NYCDOT.

But your WPQR is tested in every position you will do in production - see Article 803.

3rd thing - put everything in writing. Particularly any requests for inspection (72 hours mininum advance notice). All I will say is that I did precisely as I was directed and still got bit.

4th thing - I encourage you to keep in communication with NYCDOT - whomever is assigned to the project you're on. However, I also encourage you to have one point person for that - too many cooks spoil the soup. And do not ever rely on any 3rd party inspector - no matter how well intentioned they may be - to act on your behalf or to accurately relay your information. You won't like the results. Got bit on that too. Handle your business yourself (but make sure you don't bypass QA if they really need to be involved)
Tell your floor people not to speculate on when drawings will be approved, or when items will be shipped, or what the resoultion to an NCR will be (you know what I mean) - sometimes the facts don't get in the way of a good story. Again your "point person" should handle that kind of thing.

Of course, you will probably see what I advised is pretty much what you should do anyway. The difference is that you don't always get to see the importance of doing so.

Enjoy

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 10-29-2010 19:29

Chet is 100% correct.

I do not recommend that you print out the NYSSCM. It is 350 pages long, and you can buy a printed copy from NYSDOT Publications division for $14.00 each, plus postage. You certainly cannot print out a copy for that amount. The only drawback is that you have to send a check or a money order. They do not accept credit cards.

Joe Kane